to think that schools admissions aren't fair

[picklepud]

This is different from saying that I wouldn't go through the system if my child's local school had religious criteria, but I am feeling a bit sad and up in arms for a friend today. Same old story, her local school (primary) is c of E VA. She's not, and chose not to get baptised or go to church twice monthly. So now she will have to drive to her allocated school. So incidentally will many of the people who got in on religious grounds from way away. I really really would go to church for my dd to get into my local school, so I'm not criticising those who do, but I just don't think it should be necessary. Or that religious commitment should give you priority in a state school. And particularly that the vicar should not pretend for a minute that he (as he said in a newspapaper article) say that this is a school in the heart of the community serving all the children of the community.
I know, I know, some people might genuinely change through exposure to the church but I don't think it's the way for a church to expand its membership. sorry. and sorry it's so long.

happysmiley yes yes i get all that.

What I am saying is that at this moment, in the UK, this is not going to change. It just isn;t.

I am not sure if the tone of your post came out quite how you meant it, given that we are broadly on teh same side, but I do not think it is ok to discriminate on the grounds of religion or anything else.

My point is that if anything happens it will be an incredibly slow process. None of the 3 main political parties have said they want to do anything about it to my knowledge. Many people in power are very religious themselves. The RC church is (i think) the richest organisation on the planet. The queen is head of state and head of the church - we a a christian country. The church would not sell or hand over their land and property to the state for schooling. I would guess that the majority of people in teh country would be angry at the removal of faith schooling. There is a large demand for faith schooling.

Yes it's good to talk about it all, and to be vocal etc. But it is niave to think that there will be any change to the system in the foreseeable future.

Youmisunderstood me,Imeant we are Christians but not part of the mainstream Church.Sorry.

Could the catchment area not be adjusted so that you were eligible to apply if you lived within a reasonable walking distance, say a mile, for example?

For many people that would automatically increase their choice of available places and places could simply be allocated on a lottery basis?

It might help with the house price issue.

I would still say children in care/siblings/SN children should be allocated places first however.

Having said that, I know some people would not be at all happy because it would mean they couldn't necessarily 'buy or lie' their way into the school of their choice and might end up in a school that isn't top of the league table, so to speak.

However, the impact of this might be positive on the education system as a whole, as the enthusiastic parents would be spread out evenly in the borough.

Initially, it wouldn't help folk like who me, who simply want their child to go the nearest school so they can be with their friends, but long term, if standards improve across the board, it could increase choice for us all.

Where children do not have any school within a mile of their home, then they ought to get first refusal of a place at the school at their nearest school.

Not perfect either, I know, but fairer surely?

grenadine yes it would be a good start if they had to do 50/50 faith allocation and "community" ie distance allocation.

Star I sort of agree,there are very great schools in poor areas and very excellent teachers in them.

But there is also a phenomenon of better schoolsallowing house prices to rise in tandem,and of parents seeking academic excellence annexing schools that arenear them.

Plus,as someone raised ina council area,it is clearthat councilestate type schoolswillface a wider range of issues becuase of the peopleaccessing them- it is obviosu that parents and xhildren with lowleveel SN, poora ttitudes etc are more likely to end up in hosuing and at poorly performing schools rather than seek out alternatives. Certainly not all, but a few.

Kids need to be exposed to opportunities in otrder to aim for them and alotofkids in the very most deprived areas don'tsee that in their schools and wider life. Mixing it up enables that.

isn't, I did get from your post that you don't agree with discrimination, but I just think it's a poor excuse to say that things won't change because it's "normal" and we just have to live with that.

The reason why the three main political parties don't want to change anything is because the electorate are happy with the status quo. It's unusual on mumsnet to see so many people actively support discrimination (usually it's daftpunk on her own against the world) and I have to say I wonder why this is. We seem to be ignoring the obvious truth in that it is discrimination (and not just a little quirk of the system) because it suits the majority of us to keep things this way.

sorry. I'm not Isn't

You are not unreasonable
It is a load of hypocritical wank

happysmiley - some schools probably have very unfair admissions policies but not all. Therefore some people on here wanting to keep the status quo are not necessarily selfish they are living in areas where there is not a problem with school admissions, and where the church schools take people from the local community as well as of the faith. There are a lot of people living in large cities posting on Mumsnet and I suspect it is these areas where the problems are as there are not enough school places.

It appears the problem is with schools that offer over half their places to people of the faith or who try to insist on people going to a particular church, being of the faith is not enough. I would like to see politicians change these two things but I don't want to see the end of faith schools.

There appear to be a lot of people on Mumsnet who are anti religion in schools full stop and would just like faith schools scrapped. Fortunately the majority of MPs appear to see the benefit to the country of having faith schools.

It's not an excuse though, I'm not saying things shouldn't change, I'm saying that they won't in the foreseeable future. I'm being realistic, rather than idealistic.

A good start would be to say that they all need to take minimum 50% community places. Build from there.

wubbly yes your plan would be good for cities with lots of schools, would really put a stop to a lot of the sillier stuff that goes on.

grenadine, I think most people who are happy with the status quo are either not affected (as you say there are areas where it's not really an issue if you go to church or not) or they live in places where they can play the system to their advantage (partake in church life in order to get prioritised by a school of their choice).

Much the same way as when racism was prevalent in society most people who were for it, either weren't affected (lived in rural areas far from the brown people) or benefited from it (lived in industrial areas where their jobs would be under threat if brown had equal access to employment).

I'mnot, of course things change slowly, I'm not saying that they change overnight, but I think a start is made when people who are for discrimination are forced to justify it.

I still haven't seen a single person explain to me why discrimination and segregation by faith is acceptable and yet dozens of people are voicing support for a system that does exactly this.

happysmiley - I don't think the intention is discrimination. Surely having some church places is enabling people who are of the faith and want a faith school to send their children to a faith school. As many faith schools take people who live in the community as well there is no segregation is there.

Many church schools are volunary controlled and take their pupils based on distance and don't have any church places ..you could argue that this is discrimination against poor people as not everyone can afford to live near a good school.

There is no system of allocating places that will please everyone but the system of allocating places at some church aided schools could be made fairer.

backtolingle has it spot on - I think the established church needs to debate their reasons for continuing with their support of schools. Is it primarily to offer a Christian education to children of Christian families, or is it primarily a service to the community?

Jesus had a spirit of servanthood and a heart for the disadvantaged - surely Christians are called to be like Jesus. Maybe Christians on here can tell me if I am right?

Grenadine, the intention may not be discrimatory but the outcome certainly is.

I liked what Arcticfox said too.

The focus on faith schools is a bit of a red herring. I believe that the government allows the current arrangement to carry on because it would cost a lot if the church removed the financial support. This is something this govt had the opportunity to sort out during its term in office, but failed to address.

I suggest that if we changed it from "faith based schools" to "race based schools" there may be a bit of a backlash.

I only choose race because there is some correlation in the UK between race and faith.

I think some of the Christians I know would completely agree with us backtolingle, but there must be lots of churchgoers that disagree, or perhaps haven't given it the thought it deserves.

The established church has an opportunity here and it is sad that they are not all making the most of it.

Happysmiley - could you give an example of a race based school you know of.

backtolingle - could you explain how a c of e voluntrary controlled school whose places are filled by the council by distance to school could be described as non christian in its ethos.

Grenadine, I live in an ethnically diverse part of London and slap bang in the middle of two secondary schools. One is a very popular CofE school and the other is not aligned to any faith.

I can't help but note when I walk to work in the morning that the kids heading in one direction are almost exclusively white (I say almost exclusively because ONCE I saw a black girl going that way) and the ones heading in the opposite direction are 75% black and brown. I think you can guess who's going to which school and it seems to me that in my area discrimination based on faith translates directly into discrimination based on race.

Grenadine, in the north west you see it too. We were visiting a museum where there was some art work done by two primary schools. The names of the children were listed. One was a community school. 100% Asian/Middle Eastern names. The other, CofE, 0% such names.

Our CofE village school is nearly 100% white although the surrounding area is not so.

Whether faith schools were supposed to be socially and racially discriminatory, the unfortunate fact is that many (not all) are.

I can't really explain that happysmiley as where I live I have noticed that some schools have a larger proportion of affluent people than others but I have not noticed any difference in the make up of the schools based on race or nationality. In one of my children's classes at a c of e school over half the children have one or more parents who were not born in England.

I used to live in london and went to a c of e church - half the congregation were black and half were white. Race never appeared an issue there either.

I can see why you have formed your view as I would also feel uncomfortable in your position if the local schools did not contain a mix of people.

I don't think there is a connection between house prices and faith schools, only house prices and good schools, but as always it is impossible to know whether it was the chicken or the egg, as a good schools force up prices in catchment and affluent middle-class families make a school 'good' at least as far as league tables go. I'm sure there a hundreds of 'invisible' church schools that do not have people clamouring/lying to gain admittance because they serve a largely challenging and socially/economically disadvantaged catchment area, which is not very appealing to middle class parents. I suspect that their desires for a Christian ethos go out of the window then.

Grenadine, I don't think that my area is alone. I suspect that anywhere where there is GOOD church school, there are middle class white parents doing everything they can to get their kids in to that school at the cost of working class parents from ethnic minorities, who don't know how to play the system or can't because they are Christians.

I agree with TiggyR in that those middle class parents are only really interested in colonising the good church schools and not the ones that are disadvataged in any way.