to find the whole Broken Britain thing a load of horse crap?

[slightlystressed]

It's really irratating me now, Britain has never been "fixed".

I know Mr Smuggness will be our next PM, and I've been trying to avoid him, but he's frikin' EVERYWHERE! Using the Edlington case to highlight his theory was pretty poor aswell.

God, Im going to unplug the TV for a few days after the Election, his smuggness just might make me explode!

It's being broken depends on what you think unbroken means. If you think it means a society that has no problems and no 'rejects' you are looking for an non-existent utopia.

I agree with Riven. Previous generations might've been more worried about what people thought, but didn't just translate into everyone being polite to one another, but to rape victims being too ashamed to come forward, abuse going on behind closed doors with people turning a blind eye etc. Not saying it doesn't happen now, but the 'blame' culture has changed

The whole notion of 'old-fashioned standards' included a lot of rampant discrimination, racism, homophobia, and general judgey-pants-ness that I for one couldn't live with today. Not being able to marry someone of a different colour or religion? Not feeling able to go back to work after having kids without the neighbours' scorn? Not the 'sense of community' I want.

And whilst I agree that Jeremy Kyle is a step too far, I often watch programmes with families, teenagers or children on, and am blown away by their ability to express their emotions. Did anyone see 'Kidnapping Dad', about some children who forced their Dad to cut his working hours? Or even things like Wife Swap (occasionally) - young men especially seem able to open up about how they feel in a way that was pretty much unheard of even when I was a teenager 15 years or so ago. That can't be a bad thing.

UQD, I'm a secondary teacher- Where do the kids who tell teachers to fuck off go? Once, they went uneducated.

I teach in a PRU, so am probably biased from being told to go fuck myself in lieu of a morning greeting , but I work with some very damaged children who would once have been in borstal or approved school if they were lucky.

The system we now have isn't perfect, but it is dangerous to assume these children never existed. They are just not all hidden away in institutions any more.

Ahh, slow typing! Multiple x-posting, sorry!

I'm no assuming such kids never existed (I actually acknowledged as much) but I am saying it would have been seen as a much greater sin in the 1980s.

School headteachers are terrified of showing backbone through permanent exclusion - because it looks bad on the Ofsted report.

I'm not really disagreeing with you directly, UQD- more your teacher friends...

OFSTED is not the reason exclusions do not happen; it's the policy of inclusion, and the targets set by the borough. A school cannot permanently exclude unless they have shown they have put in place a series of strategies to deal with the problem. Occasionally, a student will commit an act so severe they become a health and safety risk, and get excluded on that basis alone; but that is a rare occurrence.

There was no policy of inclusion in the 1980s, hence headteachers being able to be more autonomous.

I'm glad exclusions are limited- with league tables, heads would be able to exclude all the low performing students otherwise.

From what I have read of the olden days there were always schools where the teachers were afraid of the pupils (they were just ashamed to say so). Remember that wonderfully nostalgic Goodby Mr Chips? There's bits in there with teachers being driven to breakdowns by unruly and disrespectful pupils. The headteacher has to take prep because the teacher can't control the boys. And that was supposed to be an affectionate portrait of a good public school. And even a satire like the much later Wilt must contain some element of truth about vocational colleges in those days: otherwise it wouldn't have been funny.

On the other hand, there are still schools where pupils speak in a pleasant manner to adults and adults to pupils because that is expected of both parties. Both my dcs' state schools are of this kind.

Am also very of the suggestions often heard that the root of the problem lies in lax uniform rules or other minor matters. Swedish schools have never taken any interest whatsoever in what their pupils wear or do their hair and teachers and pupils have been on first name terms even in primary schools since the 70s; there is no evidence of their society having been any more broken than this over the last 3 decades.

The real problem is the massive class division and the fact that there is a sizeable proportion of children whose parents see no chance of their reaching a better future by hard work.

In fact, Sweden has started in the last year or so, to develop some similar problems, and observers seem to agree that this is directly related to the sudden creation of a class of people who believe themselves excluded from the goods enjoyed by the rest of society.

It's not about mohicans or the length of skirts, it's not about whether you address your headteacher as 'mr Jones' or 'Freddie'. It is about whether you feel you have a stake in society or not. It always was. In the Thatcher years. In the days of the Victorian mob -those golden days when the favourite pastime of young people was "cheeking a toff" (what we would call assaulting, in other words).

The only thing 'broken' about Britain is that far too many people seem to take no responsiblility for their own lives and want the state to sort everything out for them.

We live in a culture of blame and 'poor me'. If you want something then get a life, get a grip and get off your arse.

That's 'one' should do those things - not you, OP!

"If you want something then get a life, get a grip and get off your arse."

Are you Jeremy Kyle, fortyplus?

I've been worried about what is now known as Broken Britain for several years now, long before the General Election campaign.

Labour's policies have lead to this rapid descent in values, and their intervention seems to just make matters worse.

I am glad this is at the top of the Tory agenda.

we need a mumsnet political party

I agree with fortyplus - the current government have created a completely bloated welfare state, with a now second generation being created where not one adult of their acquaintance has ever had or been in paid employment. Where's the incentive to 'get a life, get a grip and get off your arse' if you know that if you don't, you get your dole/housing/sick pay regardless? The country is all but bankrupt - we can't afford to continue in the way we have any more, with the highest number of NEETS in the western world, and children leaving school unfit for employment.

People talk about their 'rights' all the time, but never about the accompanying responsibilities which go with them.

And the education system is seriously to blame - it's all very well Ed Balls saying that 'standards have consistently risen' since 1997, but on every single internationl measure in the same period, we are falling further and further behind, and are now in fact the worst educated in the OECD - it's just mendacious of him to keep repeating his mantra ad nauseum, and it means that he's continuing to fail the poorest in society, for whom a good education would offer them a way out of the mire.

I don't know what the solution is - but something has to change!

I think there is a section of British Society that is broken but I suspect this has been the case for a long time if not forever.

My work within the Sure Start sector and associated groups leads me to believe that Labour has done a lot to try and repair some of the damage. Are the Tories not planning to cut funding to Sure Start? I think they will make things worse.

When people wring their hands about scroungers I am always interested to know if they actually know hoards of people who are exclusivly living off the state and milking it for all they're worth.

I find it difficult to believe sometimes that people who have such a strong work ethic and dislike for "scroungers" spend a lot of time mixing in circles with people who are reliant on benefits. Given that they are so hostile towards them.

I suspect that this view comes mainly from the papers.

People who work with certain sections of society can get a skewed view as well IME.

I've always thought that alliteration is a critical element in devising policy.

Britain is broken. asbo's everywhere. ignored. they do no good. you get thrown chips at you on the bus and then you are stabbed.......
Dcameron certainly can't fix it. he is a twit.
it is down to society and will take years and years.

ISNT you blame the papers for everything. but i was listening to a radio broadcast about young 16 yr old girls deliberatly getting pg to get to the front of the housing line.
I KNOW people who cheat the system adn get benefits and have all sorts of dodgey income.
I don't need the papers for this. I have eyes and ears.

ROFL @ me blaming the papers and then you quoting something you heard on the radio.

The media presents an image which simply doens't apply to the vast majority of people in this country.

Do you personally know 16 year old girls that are getting pg to get to the front of the housing line? That is my point.

There will be some, I'm sure, but is it really an epidemic as per the reports? Doubt it. And where it is happening the problems are to do with poverty etc.

I know lots of people who cheat the system but they all WORK. The papers never seem to concentrate on that.

Oblomov I don't know a single person with an ASBO and I suspect most of us don't.

I have never had chops thrown at me or been stabbed.

Admittedly I live in Dorset.

It's a little buzzy soundbite which anyone would be able to hang onto, and pin on their own meaning and solution.

That seems to be what so much of politics is about. Make it short, snappy and above all make sure it can mean whatever you want it to mean. Kinda like horoscopes.