Actually I think that all parents who let their underage children watch porn, feed them...

[duchesse]

...cannabis, play inappropriate computer games (eg GTA), let them get drunk, etc... should be prosecuted for child neglect. Not just the ones that nearly kill people.

i'm stunned. its a bit early to pick fights isn't it?

I can see why you'd want to find the answer as to why these two boys are like they are, and who is respobsible for their behaviour. Them? Their parents? Their grandparents? Society?

Why were their parents like they are? They must have also been abused during their lives and not been set a good example on how to bring up responsible children, which is why they didnt.

How far back and how wide should we look in this cycle of abuse?

I agree that a more pro-active approach is required. There should have been so much more intervention earlier on. We can only hope that lessons really have been learned about this kind of "Toxic" parenting.

i'm sorry but if this thread is relating to someone or something in particular you really need to link to it to stop people getting the wrong end of the stick

I concur with NinjaChipmunk.

Also there is no 'underage' for eating cannabis - it's illegal for everyone.

I'm not picking fights, just used to teach 11 yr old who'd been up till 1am playing extremely violent computer games naively bought for them by their parents. I know of many cases of 14 yr olds being left in a house for 24 hours with a crate of booze (also though teaching). I know of kids of 11 who are left wandering the streets from 7am till 8 or later pm. I know of kids of that age out half the night without their parents knowing where they are. I have seen pupils of mine aged 13 high as kites. I have been offered drugs by 15 yr olds. All these things happened in leaf suburbs.

My point is that it's not just materially deprived kids who are being neglected, and just because they're not out there doing the things that these kids did does not mean to say they're not suffering as well. And fwiw I do think the things I listed above entirely inappropriate, and I do not believe that these boys are "evil" or any of the other things that people may say about them. They are deeply damaged little boys, damaged by their upbringing. Which is why it is so important for children to be protected very proactively from the things that these children were subject to, that are really not that unusual.

For NinjaChipmunk
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/8474133.stm

Well at some point the cycle needs to be stopped. No point in wringing our hands trying to work out where it first started.

Early identification of families where this may be an issue.

Extensive support/advice/supervision in the first year or so and if no improvement these children should be taken into care.

How can anyone expect that these kids would be able to operate and abibe by the code that we have all chosen to live by. They are pretty much feral children.

I don't know why anyone would be shocked that children raised like this would be capable of commiting such an awful crime against another child.

ok i appreciate what you are saying here but you did start your thread with no context for us to take from

Ninja I wanted to raise the issue without blatantly piggy-backing one that awful event.

I'm guessing this is linked to the incident in Doncaster, though I haven't read the other thread.

I absolutely agree, parents need to take more responsibility for their kids. As does the rest of the community actually.

People need to speak up when things aren't right...too many people turn a blind eye because they don't want to be seen as judgey...some people need judging, and possibly helping.

i think it was fairly obvious what context this thread was in

i think it is easier for most people to go with the 'born evil' theory rather than address deep rooted societal ills, the cycle of neglect and abuse, as that is seen to 'excuse' the violence perpertrated by those young offenders, and people don't want to excuse it or know the reason, tehy want vengeance. quite understandably

but i think , these children are products of what their parents did/didn't do and maybe they were going to be bad anyway, who knows, but what happened to them growing up has excacerbated it to an inhumane point

if you see what i mean

I agree with you duchese.

Those thinga should be classed as neglect. People aren't born evil.

ok, and thanks for the link. yes it is truly disturbing that these things go on. i think mii makes some very valid points. there is certainly a cycle that goes on that needs to be broken and these families (and i mean the whole family) need help, support and a social care structure that works and can be trusted. very difficult thing to know where to draw the line though without being hugely invasive to some families?

It is a huge cop out to think that people are 'born evil'

These children never had a chance, I am not excusing their behaviour. But really what is more shocking, that children raised like this would do such an awful thing or that children raised like this would turn out 'normal'.

I cant even think what to do with these kids now, I would be very surprised if they could ever integrate with society in a normal way

Just musing that when I was at a posh boarding school in the 80s/90s, from age 11 upwards we were shown porn in lessons when the teachers had a hangover, taken on trips that involved lots of drinking and watching 18-rated films, and while the teachers weren't involved there were certainly loads of drugs around and people using then - the brother of a couple girls was the local drugs baron.

But all that went hand-in-hand with a heck of a lot of oversight and expectation. WHich probably explains why most of us turned out OK and those who didn't all had deep-seated problems from home beforehand.

oh god, are you that bored OP? Why are there so many antagonisitc threads on here?

Its all a bit pointless and judgey

"I cant even think what to do with these kids now, I would be very surprised if they could ever integrate with society in a normal way"

there's an excellent link on the other thread (and a thread devoted to it "in the news" I think?) about life inside child prisons (or words to those effect).

Is very interesting reading.

the whole of soceity needs to take responsibilty imo. the computer game industry is so massive. why are these saddo geeks making all these horror films, killing games and flogging it to our children? we invest so much money in techno companies like sony etc, give them prime space on the high street, we should be investing in things that are beneficial to our families.

we are hosting the olympics, yet every swimming round my way is crap.

supermarkets controlling sunday opening.
there is alot of things wrong with soceity in britain.

and another thing whilst we are on a rant thread-

simon cowell's haiti charity single- why should we be boosting the egos of repulsive simon cowell, ugly leona lewis and talentless cheryl cole? if they want to give some of their vastly and obscenely overpaid salaries to haiti, they can. don't involve us, we can give our own money without it ivolving them.

grrrr! i'm going now

They're not flogging them to our children though, they are aimed at adults and it is adults who are buying them for children!

well just that people have to work such long hours in low paid jobs, and that soceity has become so consumer rather than orientated towards family values,
sorry just into a general all encompassing unfocused rant!