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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be very shocked only 3% of unmarried parents stay together until child is 16!

671 replies

littlemoominmamma · 21/01/2010 08:02

3% is nothing!!! It is soooo sad. 1 out of every 3 couples have seperated before the child is 5yrs old

I am now glad that the tories are going to give married couples help.

OP posts:
lovelycoffee · 22/01/2010 11:25

lol at fembear reply. "sugar coated"? pathetic more like. You seem very agressive about what is effectively other peoples business. I agree with the posts re getting older, inheritance tax etc, its not about "growing up" (could you be any more patronising?)but in fact there's no statistics on this so its abit of a non-point - just your (judgemental) view

Rubyrubyruby · 22/01/2010 11:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fembear · 22/01/2010 11:38

I'm not at all aggressive. If people don't want to get married then that is their business.

"I agree with the posts re getting older, inheritance tax etc, its not about 'growing up' "

Growing up v. being grown up? Can't see much difference really.
It's when you realise that it's not 'just a piece of paper' but, in fact, a legal contract which, in the majority of cases, gives huge benefits to the woman and any DC. But if people don't want to take advantage of it then it's their problem, not mine.

LucyEllensmadmummy · 22/01/2010 11:40

Heres a Q, everyone is harping on about the legal/financial benefits to the woman - what about the man? Serious, non sarcastic Q just wondered

Litchick · 22/01/2010 11:44

Is it correct that the tory proposal for the return of married tax allowance willonly apply where one partner works?
I thought I heard Ed Balls(ache) say that on the radio yesterday and thought well that's good for SAHPs but since I'm not one...

lovelycoffee · 22/01/2010 11:44

I agree, why presume the man is the main/sole earner? Inheritance tax is an issue for both.

MumtoEliane · 22/01/2010 11:45

So the married couples stay together because they are married, NOT because they love each other? Becouse I don't think signing a paper makes you more in love with the other half??

I was set to matty a man I didn't love, realised just in time. Now I had a baby with a man I am totally in love with, and I think there is not bigger commitement than having a baby with someone.

MumtoEliane · 22/01/2010 11:46

Meant "because" and "set to marry"

LucyEllensmadmummy · 22/01/2010 11:52

well yes, thats true eliane, but i had a baby with a man I didn't love, or should i say, by a man i didnt love. Then i met the man i absolutely do love and lived happily ever after

There are just so many variables, that anyone with half an ounce of savvy will ignore ANY statistics presented by politicians or any bias party!

AngryFromManchester · 22/01/2010 11:57

I am married and I think the amount of crap and palava people spend on getting 'married' is ridiculous. How many people do we all know who had the whole big fancy wedding thing and then divorced a year or two into the marriage without any children being born. I bet between us we know loads. But at least they got their 'special day'

But each to their own and all that

Meita · 22/01/2010 13:27

I've just read the whole thread, as well as the report and the newspaper article.

Being pg and unmarried it has been quite useful as we had just recently been wondering if we should perhaps get married for legal reasons but didn't know the implications. The commitment aspect of marriage is totally unimportant to us as the decision to try for a child together is, for us, the strongest form of commitment we could possibly imagine. Anyway, many thanks to those who took the time to explain.

I'm glad the thread has clearly demonstrated that the message attributed to the figures is clearly, undisputably, false.

I would like to add that it is not just the DM that misinterprets the figures, but that actually the report itself contains strong implications, suggesting (but not actually saying) the same as is found in the DM article.

One major point which could perhaps still do with some clarification: The question of selection or causality. Many here have argued that getting married will not change the likelihood of splitting. Those couples that work will most likely work with or without marriage certificate, those that don't work won't work either way. That is an excellent point and one which cannot be emphasized enough. It is the same as saying that although there is a correlation between marriage and relationship stability (which the figures seem to imply), that doesn't mean that there is causality, i.e. that one causes the other. The alternative explanation for the correlation is the selection argument: If married couples are statistically more stable than unmarried couples, then this can just as well be down to stable couples being more likely to get married than unstable couples. Ergo, marriage does not cause stability, but rather, stability means people select marriage (on average). Choose for yourself which sounds more plausible.

Now the report starts out admitting that nothing can be said about this question - selection or causality - based on the current data. That is probably one of the few really "true" and un-ambivalently correct statements in the report. The author does go on to immediately belittle the "selection" argument rhetorically. And also goes on to imply that marriage indeed causes relationship stability (although he starts by saying that it is impossible to make such statements).

So. This report says nothing at all (but incorrectly implies a lot) about the question if marriage helps relationships or not. And yet it is used as an argument for promoting marriage for the sake of the kids who suffer from relationship breakdown. Go figure.

upandrunning · 22/01/2010 13:39

Excuse me, all those who say it's nobody else's business -- are we all Thatcherites now? Is there no such thing as society? Of course we are interested in the welfare of children, and if children do better in a two parent family, and a married couple is more likely to stay together, then that is interesting and should interest us.

Meita · 22/01/2010 13:39

Regarding the question of should you get married, for the legalities, if you earn more than your partner:

Well if you earn less, you get married for the insurance. You know the relationship might not last forever, for whatever reason, and that you would be badly off if it breaks up.

Now if you earn more, assuming you care strongly for your partner, you can simply think the same way. You still know it might not last forever. From your position now, would you want your beloved partner to become poor if you ever split up? You could say that if you split up, you won't care anymore. But now you care. In a way it's like saying: I care for you so much right now that I want to make sure you will be ok even if at some later stage I don't care for you anymore.

You might regret it later on, but it is a powerful - if vaguely patronizing - statement to make in the present, methinks.

Meita · 22/01/2010 13:43

Well upandrunning, that's exactly it: There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that a married couple is more likely to stay together.
It is waaaay more probable, IMO, that the true relation is: A couple that will stay together is more likely to get married.
But the report says nothing about this and even admits that it is impossible from these stats to conclude that a married couple is more likely to stay together.

LucyEllensmadmummy · 22/01/2010 13:44

upandrunning? go and do some knitting!! That is the single most ridiculous post i have EVER read on mumsnet EVER

it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS how I or anyone else parents their child

What do you intend to do then? Force parents into marriage? Abolish divorce? Have some sort of penalty system.

Don't you have todays DM to read?

LucyEllensmadmummy · 22/01/2010 13:46

AM i going to have to resort to talk of cock rings to slay this thread? Sorry little moomin, i did try

upandrunning · 22/01/2010 13:53

It is my business and everybody's business. What a stupid thing to say. Seems you are only left wing when it suits -- otherwise you are as individualist as the next DM reader. I'll be glad to hear that if you think it's no one's business then you wouldn't expect anybody left in the situation of single parenthood to require anybody's else's money to help them out.

But no. That's when other people's interest is actually quite helpful.

LucyEllensmadmummy · 22/01/2010 13:57

you're losing the plot now really you are

sits back and waits for the women left as single parents for whatever reason to come and have their say

LucyEllensmadmummy · 22/01/2010 13:59

plenty of married people on benefits, d'oh that blew your argument out of the water

upandrunning · 22/01/2010 13:59

not at all

there is such a thing as real life.. mn is rather a padded cell on these issues -- the consensus makes one feel cosy

but if you can give me any reason why society should not be interested apart from you not liking it and it making you cross and shouty then do let us know

Meita · 22/01/2010 14:01

Well I think the question if it is of anybody's business could be discussed elsewhere perhaps... here it is sort of very moot as it is based on demonstrably false assumptions.

Meita · 22/01/2010 14:03

It is not about liking it or not.

You say "IF a married couple is more likely to stay together" -> we should be interested.

Well it's not more likely. At least, there are no stats that support this statement.

LucyEllensmadmummy · 22/01/2010 14:08

There is a difference between interest and judging

lovelycoffee · 22/01/2010 14:08

The choices people make (whether to get married or cohabit) are NOT anyone elses business. You can have a view as to what is best for you but not for anyone else. What next? State enforced marriage if you have a child?

But being concerned for others in society who need help? That's another issue entirely. Nothing to do with people's personal choices. And the state doesn't need to be involved in most people's lives but it would reflect badly on all of us if any help was only available in a judgemental way - its on a par with saying no NHS treatment for someone who doesn't look after their health.

But there is no evidence that marriage is best - its just Tory spin...

In my ante natal group (a group of 8 admittedly - but about as good a sample as quoted in the Tory report) 5 couples were married and 3 couples cohabiting - 3 of the married couples have split, all the cohabitants are still together. Can I reach conclusions from that? No. But you can't from the Tory "statistics" either. Its simply a smokescreen to deflect from the real issues of education, housing and child poverty.

upandrunning · 22/01/2010 14:10

There are from America.

but let me guess you won't believe these either

or perhaps we could enjoy a bit of illiberal prejudice against Americans now