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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to expect a four year old to be allowed to wear their PE kit under their clothes?

92 replies

tispity · 19/01/2010 12:52

this is our first experience of the state school system as dh is at prep school but it has emerged that some dcs have been doing this in ds' reception class. the school sent us a letter to say that they will suspend any child who does not bring their kit in a PE bag. ds really does not get sweaty - as is prob the case with most four year olds doing indoor PE

OP posts:
helpYOUiWILL · 19/01/2010 16:21

my ds was just four when he went to school. On PE days i ensured i didn't button up his polo shirt as it wont be noticed under his jumper anyway. He also has Velcro shoes and elasticated trousers - all easy to get on and off

littleducks · 19/01/2010 16:40

how odd?

i agree it is better for the kids not to wear kits under clothes but suspension?

what punishment are the going to reserve for when the catch the (non reception) kids smoking drugs etc.?

shushpenfold · 19/01/2010 16:44

The school is being ridiculous about the suspension, however, I do agree with them re: the PE kit. My ds also has a big head (adult sized bike helmet at aged 2yrs!!) and I have to just buy really big shirts (and never buy from Gap who design them for small ones) He looks like a refugee in his 14yr old rugby shirt - he's 9. Practice changing at home with him and get him used to it.

brummiemummie · 19/01/2010 16:45

Ridiculous to suspend a 4yo for having PE kit on under clothes but also ridiculous to make said 4yo wear PE kit under clothes in the first place.

The school ABU for not helping with zips though.

dilemma456 · 19/01/2010 16:51

Message withdrawn

mathanxiety · 19/01/2010 17:11

It's ridiculous to make them change and it causes endless problems with lost shoes and other clothes, not to mention the waste of time changing. And even more ridiculous to threaten suspension for trying to be practical.

DCs who went to school in the US wore their gym uniforms (including gym shoes) to school on days they had PE up to age 8/9 (third grade). When they got older and changed in the locker room it took far less time. This policy was instituted after the PE teacher complained that the time spent changing into and out of uniforms was cutting into the class time for PE. She was right -- it took a good ten minutes off both ends of class, about 20 minutes total.

Can the school not trust parents to teach their children self care at their own pace? Everyone gets there by about age 8; why impose a frustrating and time consuming task on children who may or may not have the fine motor skills or organisational to accomplish it at such a young age? Changing into a different set of clothes and shoes and keeping track of your belongings is a lot to ask of four year olds.

mathanxiety · 19/01/2010 17:13

And it's a lot to ask the teachers to teach and assist too, imo.

Morloth · 19/01/2010 17:16

Suspension is a bit much.

I think pretty much all 4yos have problems with the fiddly bits. DS's reception teacher didn't help but it also didn't matter if they were a bit wonky.

gingernutlover · 19/01/2010 17:20

Okay, have been having a think about this and mathanxiety it isnt ridiculous to spend the time in reception teaching children how to dress and undress, it is actually part of the curriculum (so teachers should teach it!)

What is ridiculous is not helping the children who need help. This is the actual problem here, not the thing about wearing kits under the uniform. If the teacher was doing her job properly then the children wouldnt need to be sent in wearing their kit.

In september we change for 1 PE lesson, just plinmsols for another, as it does take about 30 mins to get them all ready, by the summer term we change for all PE lessons and it takes about 10 mins max each side of the lesson. It is a skill well worth teaching and legally they have to be able to do it to achieve the Early Learning Goals. Maybe it would be worth asking about this as if they were expecting the children to read/write their name/count to 10 without any help you would certainly be asking why. In the EYFS all areas of the curriculum are supposed to be equal.

You say the teacher is an NQT who is "hands off" so what does she do when a child wets themselves or throws up? You can't be hands off when you teach this age group - it's why a lot of teachers stay away from the littlies.

AllarmBells · 19/01/2010 17:28

Agree with gingernut. They are too little at this age to be able to do it all themselves with no help.

DD aged 4 has a PE kit of polo shirt, shorts, socks and plimsolls. The first few PE lessons they just took socks and shoes off, now they have advanced to the polo shirt and shorts but still with bare feet. I guess the socks and plimsolls are when they are outside in the warmer weather (and have advanced to putting the rest of it on themselves!). She has a school uniform (polo shirt, sweatshirt, skirt, tights) and there's no way she could get back into it all without help, not the tights anyway.

With the "welcome to the school" letter there was a big section on letting them practice putting their kit on and off, and there are regular reminders in newsletters etc. to help them learn to zip up their own coats, put their own gloves on etc. It's part of development, and something the school should be helping with.

PMSL at the 19 MC Hammers, sorry forgot who said it - what a lovely picture!

mathanxiety · 19/01/2010 17:44

I think it's crazy that it's part of the curriculum. This is a parent's job, imo. At age four, you're basically trying to push many square pegs into round holes if you expect them all to be able to accomplish a certain level of dressing or undressing by a certain age. And how do you evaluate whether they've mastered it or not? What do you do if they're having trouble with buttons or zips? Give out homework?

gingernutlover · 19/01/2010 17:49

Might be crazy but it is there in black and white, honest.

And how do you evaluate whether they've mastered it or not? We observe children, and tick off on a list who can do it.

What do you do if they're having trouble with buttons or zips? Give out homework? We practice twice a week in PE lessons! And when they dress up and when they go out to play etc etc. Ans if they dont get it by the end of the year then the year 1 teacher helps them too

mathanxiety · 19/01/2010 17:59

Do you not think they practice at home? Everyone is able to dress themselves unless there's some physical problem by about age 8. DCs in the US school they attended were evaluated for self care at age 4 and 5 (could they put on their own jacket, hat, scarf, gloves, snowboots -- important in the snowy north) and for other aspects of personal responsibility (putting away classroom materials, eating and drinking in an orderly fashion, not littering) but it was considered a waste of PE class to spend time teaching children something they were assumed to be learning at home, something that everyone, with few exceptions, learns in the natural course of personal development anyway.

TeamEdward · 19/01/2010 18:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

gingernutlover · 19/01/2010 18:08

of course i know they practice at home, thye also practice reading and writing at home in most cases

I also don't write the curriculum, but am required to teach it, sorry if you think that makes me a time waster.

mathanxiety · 19/01/2010 19:37

No, I don't think you're a time waster, but I think it's a pity you're required to spend time doing what parents could reasonably be expected to do at home for their own children. I suspect dressing and undressing wouldn't be part of the curriculum if students weren't required to wear a uniform and didn't have to change for PE.

CardyMow · 19/01/2010 19:37

My DS2 is in Y1, has SN, and it's got to the point now where I have to go in 10 minutes before the end of school on a Tuesday to help him with his uniform (one teacher, one TA, 5 SN children in one class, I'm the only parent of the SN DC's that doesn't work). He can't manage buttons or zips, and struggles with putting his trousers on (puts both legs into one 'leg' of the trousers.) He's JUST managed to get his polo top back on and put his arms in the sleeves. He can't do his jumper either. Learning self-care is important, and IS part of the NC in reception, but if the child can't manage it by Y1, it can become a problem. It's only after a term in Y1 that I have been asked to go in to help him, overstretched teacher/TA, I'm available & CRB checked...Teacher SHOULD behelping reception age DC's.

Littlefish · 19/01/2010 20:08

tispity - can you sew? I would get one polo shirt and prepare it for PE days in the following way.

Buy a slightly larger size shirt
Sew up the button holes.
Sew the buttons on top of the button holes (ie. on the outside flap)
Sew velcro on the fastening so your ds just has to unvelcro his shirt, rather than having to undo buttons

Original poster
tispity · 19/01/2010 20:21

Littlefish - well, it's been a long time but i was hoping there would be something similar out there to buy - surely there's a gap in the market. ds was going through his PE kit and procedures tonight before bed. i am more worried about his choice of PE bag (an old ladies handbag from the charity shop) than the dressing atm!!

OP posts:
primarymum · 19/01/2010 20:26

mathanxiety
getting dressed and undressed wouldn't be part of the curriculum if ALL parents did teach their children to do it themselves. The problem is that they don't! I have had children stand , arms outstretched waiting for "someone" to come along and put their coat on, or take their jumper off because at home Mummy always does it! There are MANY children who come into school unable to take shoes and socks off, let alone shirts and jumpers. So it has to be part of the curriculum, children have to practise and teachers have to help.

TheFallenMadonna · 19/01/2010 20:34

Does it say suspend? Because schools don't suspend any more, they exclude. And they could not possibly exclude for this. It must be something else meant.

Original poster
tispity · 19/01/2010 20:43

no - it says "exclusion" and is personally signed off by the class teachers, not the headmistress

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TheFallenMadonna · 19/01/2010 20:47

Well, I know its secondary and rather different, but a child at my school called another teacher a fucking slag today, and he wasn't excluded ( at that btw). So I reckon you;d have pretty good grounds for appeal were it to happen.

missmapp · 19/01/2010 20:50

ds1 had p.e today ( he is 4) and came home with his trousers inside out, the white inside of the pockets were flopping about like elephant ears, very funny ( at least the trunk wasnt on show aswell!!) He struggles getting dressed/undressed so I am pleased he is obviosly doing it on his own at school . He also has a big head so I just make sure I dont do the buttons on his polo shirt up on PE days, I also buy socks a size too big to help him get them on.

I think it is an important part of PE and, as a yr3 teacher, i give thanks to reception teachers who help teach children the art of changing sensibly!!

Original poster
tispity · 19/01/2010 20:56

is there a website called clothesforbigheadedboys.com or something similar? ds has the additional problem of being really waif-like so he looks like a lollipop when he is not wearing much

OP posts: