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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Men - a meal ticket for life?

429 replies

marantha · 14/01/2010 10:05

Reading the amount of abuse the poster Washwithcare has received here over the past few days for suggesting that her husband does not offer more money to his ex-partner (not NOT married, no contract signed) and her (not biologically HIS) children it strikes me that feminism doesn't really exist- or only exists when it suits women.
Women are still baby machines that try to get as much money off a man as they can, when the chips are down.
AIBU?

OP posts:
mumblechum · 16/01/2010 15:52

Please tell me you're not a family lawyer luckymummy??

BetsyBoop · 16/01/2010 15:57

surely this is an issue of needing education not legislation?

There are plenty of opportunities to provide information and/or legal advice to unmarried couples, for example

buying a house together
signing a joint tenancy
registering the birth of a child

For the record I lived with DH for a number of years before we got married (when we started a family together). Getting married was a quick 20 minute job in the register office with just two friends as witnesses, just to enable us to get the legal side sorted, it certainly doesn't have to be anything other than that unless the couple want it to be. (Of course I wouldn't have married him, or indeed have lived with him if I didn't love him )

ImSoNotTelling · 16/01/2010 16:02

Have read the exec summary of that document, luckymummy, thanks.

A few things sprang out:

"And in many cases relationship breakdown may lead to reliance on the State in the form of claims to welfare benefits and social housing."

I think this line shows the real reason for these proposals. To save money on the benefit bill.

Some other points:

I can't see why these proposals shouldn't apply only to people with children.

If this is to protect poor women from bastard men who will not commit to them, then why provide an opt out facility? Won't the bastard men simply get the women to sign the opt out?

How can the courts tell whether a relationship is as a "couple" or otherwise?

If this aimed at feckless men who don't do the right thing, aren't we simply going to end up with even more men "vanishing" to avoid their responsibilities, and thus even more children not seeing their fathers?

This whole proposal has been dreamt up with an eye on the benefit bills, and lots of lovely work for lawyers, IMO.

Oh and re the stat 2 million cohabiting couples. 1.25 children dependant on a cohabiting couple.

if each couple only has one child that's 750,000 couples affected by this with no children.

Probably more likely an average of 2 kids per couple so you're looking at well over a million couples (1.4 million = 2.8 million people) being affected by this, when they have no children.

There must be a better way of protecting those in need without clobbering all those without need.

luckymummy2010 · 16/01/2010 16:03

Why would that be an issue Mumblechum? Can't family lawyers have opinions?

And please don't do the whole family lawyers just out for money etc, I'm not even in practice at the moment, and its on a par with saying doctors cause people to be ill or dentists give people cavities - family lawyers help people resolve aleady existing problems.

luckymummy2010 · 16/01/2010 16:12

ImSoNotTelling - if you have a look at the criteria in the exec summary you will see that those without need won't get anything (and in fact exactly the same applies in short marriages)

And the lawyer bashing is tedious

mumblechum · 16/01/2010 16:12

Luckymummy, I was just a bit surprised that you seemed to be saying that cohabitants have automatic rights which, if you're qualified, I'm sure you know is not the case.

I'm a family lawyer and frequently have to explain to cohabitants that unfortunately they do not have rights to maintenance for themselves, claims on pensions, automatic rights of occupation, etc.

Perhaps I've misunderstood what you were saying.

luckymummy2010 · 16/01/2010 16:15

Oh right Mumblechum (so used to lawyer bashing ...) - no of course I didn't say that but not sure which bit you have misunderstood? I did refer to TOLATA, Schedule 1 etc earlier to illustarte to posters that the idea that cohabitants currently have no rights at all is wrong and that the current mish mash should be consolidated into something coherant

LittleMrsHappy · 16/01/2010 16:17

what mublechum has said.

cohabitants I have always thought need to show correspondence to prove their worth in the household.

Maybe i HAVE misunderstood also, same with CSA, the paying parent needs to have correspondence to prove how much they have gave to the child, and not "word of mouth"? payments.

mumblechum · 16/01/2010 16:19

Yes schedule 1 Children Act 1989 is a useful threat but in practice I find that DJs are reluctant to use them unless the children are in their teens.

luckymummy2010 · 16/01/2010 16:21

I agree, and a lot of DJs (and practitioners) are not very familiar with Schedule 1 so it tends to be the remedy (IMO) of the middle classes and upwards in the Principal Registry

ImSoNotTelling · 16/01/2010 16:22

People will still be able to take others to court though to try and prove that there is need? And appeal and so on and so forth...

I note that the examples where there is no need are people without children, the examples where there is need are where there are children. Why does this legislation need to apply to people without children?

People will be able to lie about the true nature of relationships? I'm not sure how the courts can tell what relationship people are in?

Plus all the other things from my last post, won't the opt out prevent this legislation from helping those it is aimed at ie those with partners who are not reasonable.

luckymummy2010 · 16/01/2010 16:23

LittleMissHappy - yes documentary proof of a contribution to a property is generally needed - its an uphill battle in most cases but if a cohabitant can show they contributed financially to eg the deposit or mortgage they are in a stronger position

luckymummy2010 · 16/01/2010 16:27

How do you legislate against lying ImSoNotTelling? Why would cohabitants be more likely to lie than anyone else? Whether there is a relationship is not likely to be the main issue in most cases IMO - if the fact of a relationship was disputed by one party, the court would look at the evidence accordingly. And spouses are more than capable of lying about finances etc on divorce!

Quattrocento · 16/01/2010 16:32

...XD

ImSoNotTelling · 16/01/2010 16:32

At least with a spouse/civil partner you are sure of the relationship in the first place.

What about all my other questions? Why does this have to apply to people without children?

LittleMrsHappy · 16/01/2010 16:35

I am assuming then (sorry this has interested me as my mum and her partner are cohabitants) that NO word of mouth will be considered but only documented evidence, (how long the relationship was, children involved, correspondence in financial the everyday bills and household etc....

Please correct if I am wrong, really interested in this x

what about money/assets before the relationship started? if say the relationship, had equal rights to the house, what about money/assets before the relationship started? Hope that makes sense x

luckymummy2010 · 16/01/2010 16:35

It largely won't - only where a disadvantage/loss arising from the relationship can be shown eg no children but DP would like other DP to give up job and look after house and support their career. Doesn't happen very often does it? So you overconcerned about this.

luckymummy2010 · 16/01/2010 16:39

LittleMissHappy - some cases run on oral evidence, day to day bills etc - forgive me if I'm being a bit unspecfic but its a very uncertain area of the law and each case is very individual. The courts do try to take into account that most people don't write everything down, have contracts etc but only to a degree. There is a very good website which explains it in far more detail than I can here:

www.advicenow.org.uk/living-together/

LittleMrsHappy · 16/01/2010 16:42

Thankyou, you have been helpful x

NiceShoes · 16/01/2010 16:56

luckymummy 2010 link Very Useful.Thanks

lollopops · 16/01/2010 19:50

you're WWC in disguise, aint ya??

WashwithCare · 16/01/2010 21:14

No, she is not... however I am mildly relieved that I see to be most commonly accused of impersonating posters who are also sols, or who read the DT or FT, live in renovated Georgian houses and kit their offpring out in Mni-Boden.

luckymummy2010 · 16/01/2010 21:49

WWC - me? lol. I wish I lived in a renovated Georgian House! (although that is my dream...). I am a sol though, but a Guardian reader and whilst indulging in occasional mini-Boden when DD was younger, have since realised that money is better spent elsewhere!

marantha · 16/01/2010 21:57

luckymummy2010 If you are saying what I think you are saying in a recent post i.e. that an unmarried partner should be compensated because they gave up their career to support a partner even if they HAVEN'T had children, then I honestly cannot see any reasonable person thinking that the stay-at-home partner should be compensated.

Really, I don't.

I'm sorry but the issue of cohabitee rights IS paternalistic- it is treating women like dumb idiots who can't organise their own lives.

It is just another way of lawyers making money out of vulnerable people. I don't mind this per se, as long as they don't pretend to care about their clients and their woes.

OP posts:
marantha · 16/01/2010 22:07

I mean exactly HOW is a childless man/woman losing out in anyway by staying at home and having their partner go out to work to support them? I can't see it myself.

Surely the working partner shouldn't have to fork out twice?

OP posts: