to think that size 14 models are NOT plus size they are just NORMAL!

[mamazon]

Most models are around 6ft. for their height being a size 14/16 is perfect for their body.

they aren't "plus size" they just aren't underweight.

I dont think it is a great thing that a magazine has dedicated an issue to plus size models. I find it depressing thaht society has such a scewed vision of beauty that a girl that is in total perfect proportion for her body is considered only beautiful enough for a special fat issue rather than the usual mainstream version.

im actaully getting a bit annoyed at the constant use of the term plus size for normal women. they aren't! I am 6'1 and a size 24/26. I am a plus size person. as in i am outside the normal range for clothing and sizing.
someone with not an inch of excess fat on them isn't.

Now do not get me wrong, i do not want to see more Beth Ditto front covers.
What i want is for the media and fashion industry to stop making normal healthy women feel that they are anything but that. why does it have to be a special healdine grabbing edition of the magazine just because they use women who do not have their ribs poking out of their skin?

On major difference is that a size 6/8 person is unlikely to even be underweight, unless they are exceptionally tall. A size 16 person almost certainly is overweight.

That doesn't mean we should be prejudiced against either, but to encourage someone to believe they are underweight when they are not is encouraging them to become overweight and suffer the associated health risks.

I'm overweight, in the clinical sense, for my height.

But that doesn't lead me to assume that anyone who is thinner than average or even really thin is suffering from a potentially fatal mental illness, or 'yeuch'/ugly just because of their size.

A moment ago you said it was hurtful because it was implying she was a brainless object/doll -- my point was just that it doesn't necessarily mean anything of the kind. If I hear the word mannequin I automatically think of a (human) model, because I think of the shop-window sort as a "shop window dummy"; and if I used the term "mannequin" (although I can't see why I would) I'd be referring to a (human) model rather than to a brainless doll.

I am assuming that the tone of the remarks addressed to your niece weren't in the tone of voice that suggests that's what the person commenting had in mind and that they were more hostile and shop-window-dummyish in tone -- and yes, I do think that is upsetting and a horrible thing to do.

If I had the attitude that it was okay and not at all hurtful to label thin people I'd have said "It's okay and not at all hurtful to label thin people" or dismissed the other abuse your niece got, not discussed the potential shades of meaning of one particular term.

But what you seem to be implying in your latest post is that even saying in isolation "Wow, you look like a model!" to someone is automatically upsetting and abusive -- as abusive as saying "You are a fat lazy cow!" is to a fat person. And that I do struggle with (except to the extent that remarking in any way on any physical characteristic of a teenager is liable to be potentially upsetting as they are often acutely self-conscious).

I have a 17yo, 5'11", size 8-10 family member (who is a talented rower and who also doesn't want to be a model, but a zoologist) who is constantly being told that she looks like a model (which she does; she looks absolutely stunning in any combination of anything that she throws on) and her self-confidence doesn't seem unduly dented by that. I can see it must be annoying to be constantly told "ooh, you should be a model" when you want to be a doctor (or zoologist), but almost everyone gets offered that kind of random well-meaning career "advice" from semi-strangers based on some incidental or transient trait or interest - if not their height and build, then something else.

There are way more unhealthily fat people than unhealthily thin people in the UK. And my cardiologist sil told me that your risk goes up as your bmi goes over 20, but they say 25 just so as not to discourage people. This thin role-model being a problem thing is always blown way out of proportion. It's just not the nation's health issue.

LadeyM, I almost have a fashion degree aswell and the size 12 we design for is tiny. It is not a modern size 12, it is an old size 12 (so an 8 or at a push a 10) As I design alot of corsets though I need my models to have TITS. Also it depends what they are modelling for. Fair enough to say catwalk models very slim but alot of other models are not that thin (or tall) it depends, but of course they are not plus size.

Mind you, there have been several designers who have asked for 'bigger' models and at certain shows it has not been allowed. Then you get prickoids like Karl Largerfield going on about fat women even though he is the ugliest fucker you have ever seen

'But what you seem to be implying in your latest post is that even saying in isolation "Wow, you look like a model!" to someone is automatically upsetting and abusive -- as abusive as saying "You are a fat lazy cow!" is to a fat person.'

No, I don't and you know it.

Writing that someone who is naturally thin is a walking mannequin is nothing like saying, 'Wow, you look like a model.'

But keep twisting away.

Angry - I must admit I did my degree 2000-2003, so things have probably changed a bit since then!! We had some of the old size 12 mannequins from the 70's in our studio which were tiny and would indeed be a size 8-10 now, but we also had brand new modern size 12 mannequins which we used more often and these were the strangest shape!! They had low-slung boobs and a little pot belly!! Lol! Where as the old size 12's were tiny waist, shapely hips with pert little boobs!! Not very flattering to today's women, if they are going on real life figures! But the measurements were more like a modern day size 12. I'm a size 8/10 and they were too big for me. I suppose it's different in different institutions, too. I hope your degree goes well! Are you showing at London Grad Fashion Week?

I know what you mean about KL!! He's a strange little man!!

From someone who has had the name calling first hand as a teenager it is horrible to be called Lanky, skinny, string bean... Even if they do mean it in a 'nice' way, it still smarts and makes you feel even more self concious than I already was as a 5' 10" tall 14 year old. I spent a long time hiding my figure when I should have been flaunting those smooth teenage thighs while I still had them!! [Wishes for them back again emoticon]

I had teachers ask me at school if I was anorexic...

I was also asked by my MW when pregnant with DD if I was anorexic as I'd lost a lot of weight with morning sickness and my bmi had gone from 17 down to 14. It was a low point, I can tell you, as I am far from anorexic. I was sent to see a dietician and consultant because of this and they confirmed that I was indeed healthy and not anorexic, but it still hurt and made me paranoid of what people were thinking about me.

But I digress... !!

Clothes don't always look better on scrawny women. Look at Olive Oyl....or Victoria Beckham or that Zoe wotsername (the "stylist") in a bikini. Shudders...

Some items do look better on slimmer/slighter women while some need a bit of tit, arse and waist to look good.

Most women who BUY clothing are not as skinny as models. Fashion may be seen as art by some but it's primarily a business that needs to sell to survive. There aren't enough wrinkly-kneed, wealthy matrons or nouveau riche, orange anoxerics, to keep the design houses in business. Many like Dior make most of their money on branded bits and pieces like perfume. And even high street retailers (not including the cheaper than cheap tat emporia) are having a hard time persuading women to part with their dosh. Surely it would make sense to produce clothing designed to fit/suit a greater percentage of potential purchasers?

Well, I have to say that Lily Cole looks perfectly normal in real life - to the point that I've been giving her vague smiles in the street because I've been assuming I recognise her as I've taught her at some point.

I don't really care what size the model is I just wish they would stop airbrushing them into perfection as that certainly isn't achievable.....those models might be 'plus' size but they have also had all imperfections, blemishments etc removed like any other model...

"Clothes should fit the person, not demand that the person fit the clothes."

I watched a programme with Erin O'Connor in it, and she said that once a designer said to her 'You need to lose weight, you're too big for these trousers' and she replied 'Well maybe you should make your trousers bigger.'

Slightly off the point but wrt airbrushing, I watched a programme ages ago about airbrushing and they used the models right eye as her left eye as well because her left wasn't quite perfect...

I do think they should prehaps take BMIs into account before classing models as plus size as it gives people the wrong idea about their own weight.

NORMAL NORMAL NORMAL! Thank God someone else feels this way! I have a school friend, size 12, 5ft7 who is on lots of the internacionale posters for a plus size range 'Chapter', it's an 18-24 range! Utter BS, makes my blood boil.

Totally agree that 6ft size 14 is perfectly nromal size.
To me model is still woma, though. Dont know why people seem to seperate them. Model is inspiration and role/model. Ever since the size 0 started, even size 12 seems to considered as big
The models/young girl these days seem to be desperate to look like wooden dummy in the shop wondow.

I guess my main issue with 'plus size' models being such a special occasion is that it leads the designers for high street brands to head in the same direction.

If High-End fashion was as artsy and separate from high street fashion as the designers would have us believe, then fine. But instead, what we have are shop after shop mimicking the body shape of the catwalk models, with no room for curves anywhere. I wear size 10/12 trousers (when I'm not preggers!), but to accomodate my boobs I often find myself squeezing into size 16/18 tops that are still on the small size, because curves just aren't in fashion anymore. That's the danger of the trend for skinny models. It's fine to have thin, angular people to show the clothes off, as long as everyone understands the reasons behind it (until reading this I hadn't realised it was so they look good in everything!). But we clearly aren't in that situation at the moment.

It's a good thing to see curvier models in magazines, but they shouldn't be seen as 'plus size'; they should be described as what they are, 'curvy'. It's a different body shape, not a matter of 'weight' (although, yes, of course they do weigh more!).

I'm not tall, and I'm not (that) overweight, but I can't buy clothes that fit me well anywhere, even in the more accomodating shops like M&S. It's the culture that demands the same body shape of everyone that's to blame, and the responsibility lies with the magazines and high street stores which costantly promote and reinforce the idea that there is a figure we should all aspire to. Unless I have my 30HHs surgically removed, it ain't gonna happen for me...

(Sorry, a slightly tangenical rant there, but it's still all a part of the same issue. Some women have big boobs and hips while others don't. To call women with curves 'plus size' implies that those features are flab rather than a natural shape. No, they should'nt be promoting overweight women, but you can't call women who simply have a different body shape plus size, model or not. The modelling industry needs to change to better reflect that. Curves are fun - why don't more fashion designers enjoy making clothes which actually flaunt them rather than ignoring the women which possess them altogether?)

I don't understand this obsession with sizes, sorry. I don't care if Nicole Ritchie (sp?) is a size 0, or Nigella is a size 16, or whatever. It's utterly boring. But I do know that when I look at an advert or a fashion magazine, I want to see beautiful people, not Emma from next door. (Apologies to all Emmas out there!) You know - people with bodies like Elle McPherson's.

"I would like to add I actually think most of the regular models are ugly. "Plus size" models, probably because they are healthy, are usually much better looking."

what utter rubbish. i have seen so many of these girls in the flesh and they more-or-less all had classically proportioned faces, healthy hair and teeth. the plus size models happen to have plus size faces too; even in cropped photos you can see it in their necks and jawline and even in theit hands and arms (when these are held up against the face). the alternative beauty which you may find less palatable only emerged around the time of Alex Wek (though some would say Kate Moss) and has been continued by Lily Cole who would not have got a look in in my day (although i don't doubt that she is a much more interesting person than the girls who worked alongside me).

it is strange because i have some of my old glossy mag photos framed around the house and even my own dh sometimes mistakes me for the other models in the spread as we were (and possibly still are) so alike.

I remember when "plus size" meant 18 upwards. I now see "plus size" collections starting at a 12

that's cos sizes have changed, filibou - a size 12 is massive compared to 15 or so years ago

well I would just like to 'boast' that I share the same vital stats as one of those plus size models who was interviewed in one of the sunday mags a while back. I think plus size models are beautifully proportioned

just wanted to share

The main reason that fashion models in magazines are smaller than average is that what the are selling, more than the clothes, is aspiration. "If you wear this dress you will look slimmer" It's rubbish of course, but people buy into it.

I think a size 14 model is normal and should not be classed as plus size.

I'm 6ft, weigh 9.5 stone. I used to do catwalk modelling. I am naturally thin because I have a very fast metabolism. I have never put on weight, after having my children I was back into my size 8 jeans within two weeks. The nurse said I was the only person she had ever had to tell to put on weight after childbirth. Hurrah for me, BUT I always only ever wanted to have a Marilyn Monroe figure, size 14 and lots of curves, men like curves. But that never happened for me, the grass is always greener, but I don't think people should automatically assume that women like me are thin because we hardly ever eat and I get fed up with snide comments from people to that effect. There is a huge difference between naturally thin and starving yourself senseless. I eat like a horse, I take after my dad, my mum and dad eat exactly the same, mum is a size 18-20, Dad is my height and probably doesn't weigh much more now. I think weight is not so much about what you eat, its your metabolism that controls you, when they find a way to speed that up then will be the answer to all weight issues.

Size 14 on a shorter person may seem bigger than a 14 on a 6ft person. Either way, in my mind a size 14 is a lot more normal and acceptable and nicer to look at in modelling than these ridiculous and worrying double and treble zeros.