to think that the word 'vermin' is amongst the most mean-spirited self-serving words in the English language.

[OrmIrian]

Tis a thread about a thread - sort of - well a spin-off from the fox-poisoner thread. Sorry.

Human animals dominate the planet. I think that is a given. Other animals have to squeeze into the spaces that we leave. The truly 'wild' bits of the world are getting smaller and smaller. Tigers for example are getting increasingly rare as they have the temerity to attempt to carry on living in their natural habitat where humans are encroaching. I don't need to tell you what is happening to polar bears. Most of the land in the UK is built-up or farmed. What is left is seen as a playground for humans - mountain bikes, motocross, walkers, climbers etc. Not much space left for other species to thrive. And we pollute the water and the air - a problem for other species even more than for our own.

There isn't a single species that hasn't been affected, usually for the worse, by human activities. Apart from those opportunistic enough and 'clever' enough to benefit from us. To fit into the cracks we leave - pigeons, rats, foxes, squirrels for example. They live alongside us, eating our rubbish, finding homes in the little bits of waste ground that we don't want. But as punishment for that adaptability we give them a name, we call them vermin, and declare them fair game - find them disgusting and try to poison them, hunt them or shoot them. Is it really acceptable to only permit the survival of those creatures that we find appealing and that don't impinge on us.

I am not a beleiver in animal rights. I think that is errant nonsense. But a bit of self-knowledge and compassion when dealing with the creatures we share our space with is needed.

OK- just get a bit with people assuming Catholic = creationist. Sorry.

So if we successfully decimate the pigeon population they will then no longer be vermin. Ditto rats? So it's only species that are good at coping with the world as we have made it that we don't like. Successful in spite of us.

Gah. Sainsburys.

I will be back though, well done for starting a really interesting thread, Orm

My mum's a catholic so I tend to defer to her wisdom on these things

Well I think society should not permit stamping on mice. So there. Certainly not whilst smiling and singing a happy tune. People who like killing small animals rarely come to a good end!

Society doesn't permit stamping on mice does it?

Well yes of course. We want to keep the populations of animals that can negatively affect us down to levels where that negative impact is minimised. That makes sense surely?

Arrgghh, can't leave!

A society which permits the killing and eating of cows shouldn't ban stamping on mice. It's hypocritical.

What of the slaughterhouse worker who is happy in his job and sings along to the radio? If he cried at every cow he killed, he would be a nervous wreck, yet that is the only permissible way in which to kill an animal according to you...

I suppose it's not illegal as mice are vermin. Nicely circular argument.

Is she a creationist?

Hmmm tether. If IIRC in Thomas More's Utopia it was a punishment to work in a slaughter house. No-one would choose to do that. And that is about right. A neccessary evil.

Only some mice Orm. If you stamped on a pet mouse, the RSPCA might have something to say about it. Which is the irony I raised in my earlier post. And which also shows that it's not about the animal itdelf that makes it vermin, but what it's doing...

If someone stepped on my pet rats I'd kill 'em! Legal or not....

fallenmadonna good point. No she isn't. She does however talk a lot about a range of subjects in a very authoritative manner, which we were brought up simply to accept - she does know what she is talking about most of the time.

On the occasions when she has been caught out, she simply denies ever having said it in the first place!
___

Re the mouse stamping, while it may be legal to stamp on some mice and illegal to stamp on others, I would say that as a society we would strongly disapprove of cheerful mouse stamping as a general rule.

As for a person working in a slaughterhouse, a rentokil operative etc. They may well be happy in their work, but that will either be because they were always a cheerful mouse stamper, or because they have become hardened to the realities of their job. The most horrendous things in the world can become everyday if you are exposed to them often enough.

Is orm going to reveal that she has a pet fox as well?

Noooo but I wouldn't mind

If you're going to stamp on a mouse, you might as well be happy about it... I mean, what's the use in more needless suffering?

(Does this also apply when stamping on beetles BTW?)

The mouse is still dead with its guts splattered all over the kitchen floor. You can cry about it, you can laugh about it, it doesn't change the fact that the mouse is dead. Dead, dead, dead. And unless you plucked the mouse from a cage on the counter beforehand, the RSPCA couldn't care less.

Moreso- and correct me if I'm wrong- it is apparently morally fine if, after stamping, you shed a tear for the mouse and, wiping it away with a heavy heart, tuck into a pig sandwich to make yourself feel better, especially after you've used up all that energy stamping; mice are fast little buggers. As long as the pig was free range and- do try to keep up- its natural predators were not harmed in any way, or, sorry, no, they were harmed but not called 'vermin', just 'animals' as they were shot through the eyeball.

How am I doing so far?

You're doing fine tethers, just fine Very amusing.

my mum has pet foxes. She feeds them sausages from farm foods.

Where do you stand on animal cruelty then? It appears to be nothing but a joke to you.

Not meant for you pointy.

Orm, I don't find animals suffering funny. What I do find funny is the idea that renaming 'vermin' somehow makes us a better society. It doesn't.

In the same way it makes no difference if the Rentokil officer whistles or sobs as he works.

I do, however, have difficulty getting worked up about animal cruelty when I choose to eat meat. I was vegetarian for many years, and I feel as if I relinquished the right to worry excessively about animal cruelty when I decided to condone the killing of animals by eating them. It just seems hypocritical to me.

oh ffs why does it have to be all or nothing? Do you think that you can only care about animals by being a vegetarian or a vegan? Do you really think that killing with enjoyment isn't worse than killing with sorrow or at least neutrality? Do you really need to be a Jain to care about
non-human animals?

Not using the word vermin doesn't lead to a better society per se but using the word vermin does demean us as a society IMO

If you just want to take the piss please feel free. I thought you found it an 'interesting' thread. If you just find it interesting to belittle all my arguments I'll leave you to it.

Don't get upset orm we are all friends here...

I have to admit I found tethersend's post quite funny. It was aimed at me as much as at you. I think she was just trying to make a point not take the piss.