to think a child should be able to get into a grammar school without tutoring?

[AntonioGramsci]

I am surprised at how many kids get tutored for the entrance exams, surely if they are clever, enough practicing a few papers a few weeks in advance should be sufficient? Did your child get in without being tutored?

'I think that this is the whole problem,releasethehounds,whatever you tell her she will feel a failure if she doesn't get through'

That wasn't a very constructive thing to say. I know plenty of children who didn't get into the grammar school and they have lived rich and full lives, many starting businesses, doing well at school, etc.

And, releasethehounds, she may well get in, anyway, as she sounds very bright.

'That wasn't a very constructive thing to say. I know plenty of children who didn't get into the grammar school and they have lived rich and full lives, many starting businesses, doing well at school, etc.'

This is a misinterpretation of my words!!

I went to a secondary modern school and university!
I didn't feel a failure-I was disappointed not to get a place but I don't think that it occurred to me, at that age, that my parents were disappointed. They just said 'do your best'-which is what I did.
Releasethehounds DD will not be a failure if she doesn't get through-however since she knows how much it means to her parents she will feel a failure if she 'lets them down'. The need to 'back pedal' very quickly before Saturday and stress that there is no failure in not getting through and it won't make any difference whatsoever to her chances in life (I know masses of 11+ 'failures' who are very successful in life).
An exam at 11 is is a ridiculous way to find adult potential!

My friend just put her DD in for a couple of entrance exams to two different grammar schools. She did some practice papers first and passed one of the exams - yaaay!

My friend told me that at one of the schools, she saw children crying after the exam - 10 YEAR OLDS, CRYING FROM THE PRESSURE

Mind, I watched 10 & 11 year olds tying them selves up in knots over the bloody SATS last year.

Madness - all of it - utter madness.

If the DC is crying then it shows that there is too much pressure. Back in the days when I took mine we did a few practise papers and did the exam-no one cried! Failing isn't the end of the world. It was much fairer because the child from a very poor background, with parents who took no interest, stood just as good a chance of passing. If the DC knows that the parent has spent hundreds of pounds on tutors, and they have spent 2 years preparing, then the pressure is enormous (and unfair IMO).

Neither I nor my sister were coached, we got into grammar school, my parents got a letter from the Education authority telling them that I had a 100% pass in everything, the first time it had ever happened ( but I love puzzles, anagrams etc and was also a prolific reader) and wouldn't they prefer me to go the the High school, fee paying but direct grant, so full scholarship.

We had huge battles as I wanted to go with all my friends to the GS, I won, biggest mistake ever, as I was moved three times,in secondary education - forces child, and if I had gone to the High school I could have boarded which would have been much better. My sis wanted to go to the High School but was made to go to the grammar with me!

My DB ( coached, or rather did a few papers) failed the 11+ and got a scholarship to a top public school!

I didn't coach either of my DC's, DD did extraordinarily well and got offered 4 schools, went to top Comp for 2 years and then due to ill health and no support from the school, moved back into private sector where she was extremely happy.

My ds has just gone to sit his final 11+ exam. Thankfully he isnt in the least bit bothered otherwise I would feel guilty putting him through this.

I really wish that things were different and that I hadnt had to go through all this and then I remind myself how bad the comps are. I feel there was no other choice.

My ds didnt see anyone cry, but a friends daughter who has also sat the girls equivalent of the tests said she did. I would be mortified if ds had cried and I wouldnt have put him through any more, but luckily he is a cocky little bugger who doesnt give a shit!

Oh and im really envious of those who are saying that they literally did a few practice papers and their child gotin! Im telling you, it aint like that round here!Especially with the maths. My ds has basically had to learn work a year in advance so a few practice papers wouldnt cut it thats for sure.

Re my message earlier, I don't want to be seen as showing off, but I think a lot also depends on the sort of primary education you have had. I was at a very formal, but fun, desks in straight rows, 50, yes 50 hard spellings on Monday mornings, only getting them on a Friday afternoon and they were individual to the child, we had dictation, comprehension and sang tables by rote. I loved school!

We were kept in at break or lost time off lunch hours, we knew we were there to learn. I have been a school governor for 12 years and have spent a lot of time in primary classrooms, whilst they learn some very exciting things, I can see how children slip through the net, bright ones having to pace themselves and not so bright really struggling and getting disillusioned with learning.

My DC's went to a less formal state primary for a while and then back into the private sector, I know they preferred the more formal learning environment. My Ds had far too much freedom of choice in how he learned, what he learned and when he learned, or rather didn't!

I know a lot of people don't think that going back to old fashioned rote is the answer, but it certainly works in private primaries .

Just wanted to say a big thankyou for those who have given their support re: my DD doing the test on Saturday. I'm afraid this thread caught me at a very low moment!

Just to be clear, I have tried very hard not to put my DD under pressure for this, although I know it has been necessary to practise the papers. I have stressed to her that nobody will think any the less of her if she doesn't get into the GS and she will do very well at the local comps (which thankfully in our area are very good). I think I worry more because I work in a large college and specifically in some difficult classes where students are disruptive/abusive, and some days I leave work praying that DD doesn't have to mix with them at school. That may sound snobby - I don't mean to be. I just want her to be able to learn in a happy environment.

releasethehounds, if it's any consolation to you, I had terrible nerves before every exam I ever did - to the point of being physically sick for at least one of them. It didn't mean I didn't want to do them, or that I felt I was being forced to do them - the fear of failure came from within me - I hated the thought of looking stupid.

I hope your DD does well in the test and may I recommend a little rescue remedy in her morning drink? There is one available that has no alcohol in it (the normal one has 2% brandy as a preservative) and I and students of mine have found it very helpful to quell the nerves.

thumblebells, good advice re the Bach's, my DS used it and still does now as an adult. I have used it on anxious little children with success too.

carmenelectra, I am Doodlez friend, and DD just did a few papers in the two weeks before the entrence exam, but TBH, if I had known how hard the tests would be and had more money I probably would have been tempted by tutoring. There was a lot of maths subjects that had not been touched in school and DH had to go through a lot of "maths boosting" with her in the last few days before the exam (once we had identified from the papers she had completed which subjects she had no knowlegdge of at all.)

The thing is I had absolutely no idea that SATS & 11+ were so different as I went to school abroad. Had I known, I would certainly have been more organised and given her more time than I did, I certainly won't recommend to anyone to wait for the last two weeks before doing a few papers.

Doing a the papers is great though to help you identifie what needs more work on , even if you do not get a tutor and do the coaching yourself.

Thanks for the advice re: Bach Rescue Remedy - funnily enough I saw a bottle in the chemist's yesterday and thought about buying it for DD!

I think I will try it for her, although I never found it particularly effective when I have been stressed. Maybe the placebo effect will work if nothing else.

I'm very old but was at a prep school. We spent the whole term before the exam doing practise papers - at least 3 a week.

DD has just done 11+. I meant to help her with it, but with my mum's death, closely followed by my brother's, I didn't.

As it was, we did go through a variety paper with examples of all types of questions so we could identify her weak points - non-verbal reasoning in fact. She'd never seen anything like it before. We did a couple of exercises in the week before her exam.

She says the paper went quite well. We'll find out in March. I actually want to turn down the place if she's offered one, as there's a different school I think she'd be much happier in, but it's a lot further away. She of course, wants to go to the grammar.

My neice has just got into a grammar school with no tutoring or anything, so it can be done. Maybe tutoring helps the marginal ones?

I think it's impossible to say whether tutoring helps or not unless you know the statistics for the school you're trying to get into.

If your daughter was trying to get into Tiffin Girls or Henrietta B. in London you'd probably want to tutor as the competition is far, far fiercer than it would be for a grammar school in, say, a small market town in a sparsely populated area of East Anglia.

If you look at the exam results of grammars it's quite clear that some are much better than others and that the latter category possibly don't set the entrance bar as high.

I don't have children in grammar schools so I have no axe to grind here, btw.

Where i live(Midlands) I realy do not see how my ds would have stood a chance(he still might not) at all without some coaching tutoring. The tests he has just sat included maths that he hadnt yet covered yet so it would be impossible surely?

He couldnt be expected just to 'know' algebra, hard fractions etc etc.

The only way he could have sat it and understood any of it without tutoring would have been id maybe he had attended prep school or was exceptionally bright and had covered yr 6 and 7 maths and english in advance.

You are absolutely right Carmenelectra they cannot just know it. When does he get the results for the test he just sat?

All the best!

gorionine,

We get the results for all the 11+ on March 1st so a long wait yet!

WOW! DD got hers two weeks after and I thought it was a long wait! We do have to wait until March though to find wether she actually got a place or not as the school is a selective state school, successfully passing the entrance exam is not enough, the catchment (in which we are not) is also considered so it could still go either way.

Is your son guaranted a place if he passed? I hope so as it would only be fair after so much hard work and waiting.

DD really really wanted a place at the one she failed but is not too worried if she does not get into the one she passed because she would rather like to go with her other friends at the local high school (which we did like anyway) so whatever the outcome we will be happy!

A local school had a lot entrants whom were tutored , now a significant number of these children are having trouble keeping up with the "bright" children particularly with German. Its a way of making the grammer school more like a comprehensive.