to think a child should be able to get into a grammar school without tutoring?

[AntonioGramsci]

I am surprised at how many kids get tutored for the entrance exams, surely if they are clever, enough practicing a few papers a few weeks in advance should be sufficient? Did your child get in without being tutored?

bibbity, pendantic moment, you did mean uninterested, rather than disinterested, didn't you?

Ooooooh madame, I expect so. I mean parents who are not interested in their childrens' education. Loving your pendantic moment! .

I didn't notice the additional N in that! bibbity...hehehe!

solos are you in the 'royal' town by any chance? I've just moved DS from the local Catholic school for precisely the reason you state, and because the head told me "the clever children just teach themselves don't they"

i have had three get in without tutors and i do think there is a lot of over tutoring going on

i am about the only person i know who has not tutored and my kids are not geniuses

i met a friend in costco (!) at the weekend and she said she had to move her boys out of our local prep a year early as 'all they do it hot house them for the 11+'

when we went to look round a local prep they also told us how they start introducing VR and NVR at the most ridiculously early age...

my dcs went to non feeder schools and passed with a few past papers under their belts - if they really need tutoring they should not be there and will not enjoy it

ah yes, bibs, pendantic, decorative as well as picky.

We do have this thread once a week ...

Just for the (broken) record:

1. Some grammar schools set exams that test knowledge - knowledge that children at state primaries will not have been taught. Ergo they have to be tutored to stand a chance

1. Most independent prep schools don't coach or prepare for the 11+ - although a few do - and from what I can gather on MN - it's mainly those in Kent or Berks.

1. But most grammars do simple verbal and non-verbal reasoning for which 3 practice papers is more than enough

DD passed the exam for a state grammar without being tutored in any way - although we did three papers with her.

quattro have you tried those nvr tests? 3 practice papers is a wee bit optimistic judging by the expected pass rate

our private grammars are easier to pass for ime just essay writing and maths exam

we are in yorkshire and all private preps teach to the test

Yes I've tried the verbal and non-verbal reasoning tests. DD is bright but by no means a genius and she passed pretty well with three practice papers.

Not in Yorkshire myself but DH was and his family are all still in Yorkshire. The junior school at his old school (Leeds Grammar) doesn't teach to the 11+ and nor do Leeds Girl's High School junior school nor Wakefield Girls High School Junior School. Unless you mean the preps which don't feed into a particular senior school? We didn't look at those when we looked into moving up to Yorkshire.

we are north leeds!

your dd must be bright

My mother (maths teacher in a GS) says there are two types of bright children - those who are conventionally bright and whose minds work in the same way as those who set the exam papers and those who aren't conventionally bright, are well able to do the work but interpret the question differently in a way which is still entirely correct. But those children should not need hard core tutoring, more familiarisation and practise in exam technique. Just doing a couple of papers isn't going to give them that because they don't understand why they're getting the questions 'wrong'.

Then there are not very bright children who get in though tutoring and having been drilled like little robots who can't cope.

So YAB a bit U because some children just naturally think outside the box and a little bit of tutoring will point them in the right direction.

If they need more than a few practise papers, then they are not suited to selective education IMO. Passing the exam is only the start and it must be horrible to be in a class where you are constantly out of your depth-remembering there will be DCs there who haven't needed any tutoring.

I remember passing the 13+ because I hadn't been in the catchment area for the 11+. I thought the practice papers were fun and I did as many as I could lay my hands on! I wasn't tutored and I wasn't under pressure because I was already at a high school I was happy at. Don't put pressure on your children to pass. If they don't get through on the 11+ then they get to try again.

I agree AnnaMa-some just aren't ready at 11. My brother failed and then passed at 12, by 13 he was in the fast track, grammar school class. If they are capable they will do it themselves! There would have been no point in tutoring him -he simply wasn't ready at that time and it would have been very discouraging. It didn't hold him back.

SouthernMeerkat, no, I'm not there...

Well, I have just hired a tutor for my dyslexic son as he will be sitting 11+ type exams for his new private secondary schools and the prep school he is at doesnt do these (we are moving). For me it is more about him not going in to an exam he has never seen cold. he has got very high VR and NVR scores but struggles with english and I think a few sessions of 1:1 will help his confidence. I dont see it as an arms race, I am more worried about him having to sit exam papers when he has never seen one. IMO if he doesnt get in, its just not the right place for him. In all honesty I wish he didnt have to sit them at all but all private schools sit entrance exams at 11+ and as we are moving schools he will have to sit them to get in.

I think it's very interesting that so many people seem to think that either you've got it or you don't; and success has nothing to do with hard work.

I believe that success is largely but not exclusively dependant on hard work.

Getting through the exams isn't necessarily the best marker of academic ability once the kids get there- as I'm sure has been said here. We have an excellent boys and girls grammar nearby with a ridiculously high barrier to entry in terms of numbers of applicants. Chidlren are tutored - so the story goes -from around five in some cases. The burn out rate is allegedly quite high although that doesn't square with the results.

The schools are in a difficult situation in so far as they have to be seen to be using the most objective criteria to select children, which is going to be a test. Think of how complex things would become if they introduced interviews or any sort of screening that attempted to look at the 'whole child' rather than just how they preformed on the test. I guess there would then be accusations that it was really open to manipulation.

But it is likely, I reckon, that a certain number of chidlren whose parents can afford to or don't have the wherewithal for whatever reason pay for the private tuition are missing out. Which undermines the idea that the test is truly 'objective.'

Our ds has recently sat 2 11+ exams and is due to do a third tomorrow. We did pay for a tutor and well as doing quite a bit ourselves. By quite a bit, I mean we probably did a hours work a night for a bout 8 mths. Obviously didnt work every night solid had nights off etc.

Where we live it is very competitive to get into grammar and its not just enough to 'pass' the exam but a child needs to be in the top 120 or something ridiculous, out of well over a thousand applicants.

I dont beleive it when someone says that it should be enough just be bright and pass on their own merit. our ds is bright, but verbal and non verbal reasoning isnt taught in schools as part of the national curriculum and the maths needed to pass is at least a yr ahead of what he is doing at school.

maybe if you have a child who has attended a prep school or is doing work way above their age at school then they wouldnt need coaching, but certainly where i live then i think some coaching is necessary.

This is from the GL assessment website; they write most of the eleven plus papers:

'There is no such thing as a measure of innate ability. The quality of prior teaching, opportunities to learn, parental support, pupils' educational experience, and their emotional and physical well-being, including nutrition, will affect pupils' performance on all educational tests. However tests of the taught curriculum - reading, mathematics, spelling etc. - are likely to be influenced by these factors to a greater degree than reasoning tests.

Attainment tests, such as National Curriculum tests or GCSE examinations, are designed to measure outcomes of specific learning and instruction, and the test content is drawn directly from the taught curriculum. In contrast, reasoning tests tap into a general set of prior experience by assessing the perception and manipulation of relationships, content that is not generally part of the taught curriculum.'

Well after thinking long and hard, we are not putting ds in for grammar school test next week despite tutoring him. He scores 90% consistently, and enjoys it- but told us last week he doesn't want to go there. He didn't show much enthusiasm when he went to see it, yet did for the local boys comp.
So no queuing with 1500 boys for us- and what a relief.

I just pray to God that our ds gets into grammar as i cant even contemplate the idea of him going to a local comp. The GCSE results are crap and the kids look like a bunch of hooligans! Our ds is aslo very easily influenced and i worry he would get easily distracted and not work to the best of his ability.

Initially, i think he would have preferred the local comp but after he attended all the open days he actually decided he like the same grammar that we thought was the best.

Wont find out till March so its a long wait

What will happen if he doesn't carmen? Our school is "up and coming"- gcse results quite poor at the moment- but the last 3 years have seen a good intake of boys from local schools who are all doing well and are supported at home by their parents.
Will you go private?