to expect people to keep their teenagers under control in the park

[fledtoscotland]

the title says it all really.

I am totally sick of taking my DC aged 1 & 2 to the park to find it vandalised by teenagers.

At the weekend we walked to our nearest to find the baby swing has been broken by teenagers standing in it (they were doing it at the time so I know they were approx 14/15yrs old), glass everywhere, dropping their litter after them. When I walked up to them they ran off so I didn't even get a chance to give them a piece of my mind.

yesterday walked to the other park in the town (further but usually nicer) to find the baby swing again vandalised although this lot had used some imagination and set fire to it , the slide had been spray painted and there was glass round the see-saw.

Just to set the scene, I have two dogs. yes they have both got their Good Citizen certificates from the Kennel club, yes they can be excitable and yes they get tied up if there are any other people at the swing parks (although in my town the parks aren't fenced off so you can take dogs up to the swings.

I would be lynched if I didn't pick up after my dogs or repair any damage they caused yet parents seem to thing that any damage their precious teenagers cause is part of life.

am going to don hard hat now while I'm told that I am totally out of line - at least I feel better now I've got it off my chest

Barbaria - My point being, just because our teenagers are well behaved, doesnt mean that there isnt a problem with other teenagers.

"Whereas youth offenders increased by 92 per cent from 16,010 in 1997 to 30,683 in 2007."

I'm don't pretend to be an expert in youth criminology but there are MANY reasons for this that have nothing to do with any change in kids behaviour.

ASBOs for instance can be given for extremely minor instances of antisocial behaviour which a couple of decades ago wouldn't even have been reported, let alone sentenced, and it's well documented that they are used disproportionately against young people.

But doesn't it annoy you Claw, when people say things like:
"Perhaps the difference is also 50+ years ago a teenager would respectfully accept a clip round the ear from the local policeman and think themselves lucky that their parents were not told.

Now days, policeman would be told to fuck off and be charged with assault!"

And you think of your own lovely funny vulnerable teens and realise that is how some blinkered people assume they would behave?

Because it annoys me.

Theyoungvisiter - As i stated earlier, it could be due to more cases being taken to Court or it could be due to more crimes being committed. Take your pick!

Personally im off the opinion that more crimes are being committed.

Asbo's would not be included in the 92 per cent increase btw as these are civil.

It doesnt annoy me Barario, for me to get annoyed i would have to take comments stated in a debate personally, seen as said comment wasnt directed at anyone personally, i wouldnt take offence.

"Asbo's would not be included in the 92 per cent increase btw as these are civil"

Yes, but breaching an ASBO is a criminal offence. And as the breach rate of youth asbos lies somewhere between half to two-thirds, that is a HUGE number of children being criminalised for what was essentially a minor offence in the first place. And none of these criminalisations would have taken place before asbos were introduced.

To breach an ASBO would mean you had committed the same 'offence' again, more than once, as warnings are issued beforehand, 3 warnings i believe for breaching the order. So this would no longer be a minor offence?

Claw - breaching an asbo can be as simple as going to a certain part of town or not following any other rules outlined in the asbo. It may have nothing to do with recommitting the original offence.

What if you're a kid who's been forbidden by their asbo to go to the town centre after 6pm - yet all your mates are going, and there's a film on you really want to see, and your mum is pissed off with you staying at home.

Does that child really deserve to have a criminal record for being in the town centre at 6.45pm? Because it can be as simple as that.

Hmmm well some children in our street were threatened obliquely with ASBOs for 'behaviour likely to be a risk to property'. Namely sitting on a garden wall (one of their own) and chatting whilst bouncing a football on the ground. Ditto riding a bicycle on the road. The PCO readily recognised that it was absurd but once a complaint had been made it had to be followed up.

This thread seems to prove how determined some people are to demonise teens, even despite personal experience to the contrary.

(Still annoyed, but have to go to work now.)

Well, of course barbarian. It's always the same. I know that teens can be horrible. It is simply that all of those that I personally know are not. They might be inexperienced, misguided, hot-headed at times, but they can be forgiven that given their age. What excuses can there be for adults who act the same way?

Well lets say teenager has been forbidden from going into town centre for anti social behaviour, bearing in mind to receive the ABSO in the first place, he would be put on a warning lasting 3 months ie cause more anti social behaviour within 3 months and you get asbo.

Anti social behaviour is harassment or
causing distress, fear or intimidation or
damage to property. So if said teenager has been warned once and done the same thing again within 3 months, perhaps he shouldnt be going into Town Centre after 6pm?

He would also be given 3 warnings of breaching his order before he was taken to Court.

Im not demonising teens, i think i have said more than once that not all teens are anti social criminals. I have 2 teenagers myself.

Just some seem to think because of personal experience, the problem of anti social teens doesnt exist.

Anyhow ladies, its been nice debating with you, im off to do some housework.

yes Claw - he probably shouldn't be going to the town centre, and yes he possibly is a little trouble-maker.

But that doesn't negate my original point which is that he has received a criminal record for behaviour which, in the past, would not have resulted in a criminal conviction. You were the one who raised the youth offence rate as evidence that our teens were becoming more antisocial - I'm just trying to show that changing legislation is as much the problem as changing behaviour. In the old days there is simply no way that a child could receive a criminal record for just hanging about in the wrong place at the wrong time. That is not the case any more.

It also doesn't negate the bigger question - is it right that we're criminalising a generation of kids for minor offences? Because whatever way you look at it, regardless of the frequency, these ARE minor offences, not criminal ones.

If they've committed a criminal offence then fine - take them to court. But how is it right that this generation of children are being criminalised for behaviour that is not actually criminal? You can't expect a 12 year old child to understand the long-term consequences of breaching an asbo.

Yes Youngvisiter, your point was noted when i said the 92 per cent increase could be due to more cases being taken to court and it could also be due to more crimes being committed. Take your pick! I find it hard to believe this huge increase is due to more youths being taken to Court.

I also dont think we can judge how minor these offences are, for example teenagers sitting on a little old ladies wall and refusing to move, would be the end of the world to a little old lady? A group of youths hanging around outside a shop every night, putting some people off of using the shop and having an impact on someones living?

A 12 year old may not understand the long-term consequences of breaching an asbo, but hopefully his parents would.

Flippin heck Monkeyfeathers... (post 19 nov 11.10 am) If I thought when I was a teenager that all I had to look forward to when I was an adult is cleaning a house and Saturday shopping I would have cried in disbelief!!

I'm now in my mid forties with teenager and one at primary. I make sure that the cleaning is done as quickly and as painlessly as possible so that we can actually live and have fun. It doesn't always have to cost much or any money. My live doesn't revolve round pubs but going to the theatre (cheap tickets for the first couple of performances and free tickets to under 26's including- yes - teenagers, cinema, travelling - again as cheaply as possible, mountain biking (big DS doesn't always like being with mum but if we take mates along it's ok,)and going to gigs. Seeing new up and coming bands are the cheaper and sometimes more interestng option than stadium gigs.
Most of my evenings and all of my weekends are now filled up until next April. (Including some work sessions and holidays) I know that is NOT everybodies cup of tea but that's how we live.
I really disagreee with you about finance being a barrier to many activites. I think lack of creativity and motivtion is the killer here.

I don't think that covers my point at all.

"It could be due to more cases being taken to court" - that implies that it might be due to better detection, policing or higher reporting of the same crimes.

It completely fails to mention that in that 10 years there was a massive change in the law, meaning that a lot of children now end up in the criminal courts for behaviour that would not and could not have been prosecuted in the same way 10 years ago.

"I find it hard to believe this huge increase is due to more youths being taken to Court"

If you honestly believe that the youth of Britain has spontaneously got twice as evil over the course of ten years, and that this has nothing to do with the simultaneous introduction of asbos - well, good luck to you. It's not a picture I recognise, that's all.

And I totally recognise that youths sitting on a wall might well be intimidating to an old lady but if she is that intimidated she may well not ask them to move in the first place. Just assume that they are a threat. Because her perceptions are fed by a media that paints every 16yr old in a hoody as a callous thug.

Out of interest up a hill what sort of things have you got planned between now and April (don't answer if I'm prying too much)

Madame....I don't mind you asking.

Over the weekends I've got some work which includes
December- VHF Radio course
January - a residential to Scotland doing winter mountain skills
February- a residential to the Yorkshire Dales with 30 young people.
March A ressi to wales (Big DS coming on that one)
April taking a group on a ressi this month. Don't know the group. I've been bought in to lead the course.

I'm taking a weeks leave in January and me and mates going skiing and wild camping in Scotland
Me and my DS's are going away Febraury half term. Going to Scotland.
Me and DH and kids going away Easter.(April)
Me and DH away on his works do for a weekend in Bimingham in January.

Me and DS1 got some caving and mountain bike sessions planned.
Me and DH are going to see Slayer, Dio, Gossip, Gary Newman and Rammstein and the Men they Couldn't Hang in Manchester.
Me and DS2 are doing Pen y Gent next week end with his mates.

Me and kids got tickets for the Pantomine.

Me, a friend and youngest DS often go to Manchester Climbing Centre on a Friday night if I'm not working,
Sunday night I have a canoeing session to go to.
Me and DHhave got a couple of plays to go and see. I've got one weekend where it's my turn to have 'the girls' round. we usually take turns to do a theme night.
I've got tickets for the Rocky Horror on 12th December in Manchester.
Also me and DS2 going Chill factor for some boarding sessions

That's it for now!!!

TYV - Apologises i thought more youngsters breaching ASBOs = more youngsters ending up in Court and the point was covered.

"massive change in the law, meaning that a lot of children now end up in the criminal courts for behaviour that would not and could not have been prosecuted in the same way 10 years ago" As far as i am aware harassment, intimidation or damage to property were a criminal offence before ASBO's were introduced in the 90's and children could be arrested for these things?

Upahill - are you saying those activities are free or low cost?
Just looking at them I'm thinking it must cost you a fortune.

Isn't the problem that although everyone on here only knows lovely teenagers (which most of them are), this being a very middle-class forum, you're not likely to know any delinquent/criminal teenagers? You can't really say "all teenagers I know are great. so they all must be".

Juule... I am saying that was my response to Madame when I was asked what I was doing between now and April. I didn't mention costings.

BUT it's not as expensive as it looks.

OK Tickets for gigs round £20 a throw but that's my greatest extravagance.
Theatre tickets bought cheap because it's half pricce on first Thur/Fri and Monday of showing.
Wild Camping is free. Petrol costs tto Scotland shared.All I need for skiing is my lift pass to pay for. I would be buying food if I was at home.
Snowboarding off Peak and membership rates bring costs down
Walking and mountain biking with kids free
Caving £30 Per Annum membership.

I can't stand not having stuff to look forward to and for various reasons I do try to live my life as if it was my last on earth!
Our Birmingham weekend is going to mega expensive. I don't even look at the bill from that one because I get uptight on how much is spent but it is something that DH really enjoys so fair play to him. Everytime I order a drink I wince at how much it costs which then makes my DH uneasy because he wants me to have a good time.

From the point of view of activities for young people, all the residentials I am doing from now until April won't cost the young people a penny. They will have transport, accomodation,food, instruction and equipment provided for them. All we ask is commitment to the various youth groups that they belong to which I don't think is an unreasonable request.

So its only working class teenagers that cause problems then