to think home births are selfish?

[woozlet]

I just watched a 'desperate midwives' that I had recorded and there was a home birth on it which went wrong. It worked out ok in the end and the baby was ok. But I was really scared watching it, it just seemed like an unnecessary risk to take.

Woozlet, there are an awful lot of feelings which become attached to this subject particularly by women who don't have a nice experience in hospital when they are giving birth. Once you are in hospital you are no longer in control of your body so I can completely understand why a woman would want a homebirth. However, for me I would want to be in a hospital as that is what would make me feel most happy and relaxed.

I don't like Boffinista's view either that "nature" provides its own pain relief. For some people labour goes on for hours and I can't see it as being selfish to have an expensive pain relief. What do you expect people to do - grit on their handbags during labour? You are lucky if you are able to cope with the pain of labour without pain relief.

"You are lucky if you are able to cope with the pain of labour without pain relief"

When you say you are 'lucky' to be able to cope without pain relief it makes it sound as though going without pain relief is a rare event. With respect (and as someone who's had births with and without epidural), I work on the assumption that most women can 'cope' with the pain of labour, in acknowledgement of the fact that the vast majority of women around the world give birth without epidurals and have done since the dawn of time - and most survive untraumatised I assume!

Re: pethidine and g&a - they offer some sort of relief to some women, but they're not particularly effective as analgesics.

I loved gas and air. Even thinking of it now makes me

Grylls, I didn't mean that - I've had both types of labour during my four bouts of it, and an epidural once, which I was very grateful for. But a lot of people expect it to be unmanageable from the start, and are desperate for all the drugs they can get without even having experienced the pain and seen if they can manage. In a more relaxed environment lots of women find they are able to cope OK given the right set of circumstances, and that's what we should be aiming for. I'm with Dick Grantly-Read on this one.

Oh god me too, gas and air is fantastic stuff. I asked the midwife where I could buy some beats drinking any day!!!

Sorry Sabire but you are just a perfect example of that dangerous type of mother who has a little bit of knowledge and THINKS she understands the processes of childbirth and labour - I'm referencing your explanation of cords round babies necks here - but in reality has only a basic knowledge that in no way compares to the knowledge that is needed to make a sensible judgement. I showed your post to my husband who is a doctor and he shuddered and said that that is the type of thing that scares him - people who misguidedly think they understand medical issues but who in reality have very little understanding or knowledge, and that's dangerous.

I also am annoyed at your judgement about other women's ability to cope with pain. You have NO RIGHT to make a judgement on this. Just because YOU could cope with the pain, you have no absolutely no right to say that "Most women can cope with the pain of labour" - sorry, who do you think you are? How many births have you attended please?

In my own experience I found it very painful, to the point I NEEDED pain relief. And I have seen other women giving birth, who found it very painful too, and needed analgesics.

Finally,
"I had a forceps birth with my first and my IM didn't think it was an issue when it came to booking a homebirth second time around."

Well, of course she didn't, you were paying her to think it wasn't an issue!!!

And curiositykilledthecat - From what you say I don't think you know much about the process of birth or the various things which are offered in hospital during labour which can increase your chance of having interventions.

Sorry, curiosity.I have had two hospital births. My husband's a doctor, and in my job I have seen and attended many more births than I imagine you have - I am afraid it is perhaps you that is a little lacking in knowledge. However, I am willing to admit that what I do know is in no way comparable to someone with a medical qualification. Perhaps some of you need to admit the same - as I say, it is people like you who think you are experts who are actually quite dangerous, particularly when you start evangelizing to other people who assume you have more knowledge than you have.

Yes, but ABCD...YOU aren't a doctor either, and just because you've had hospital births and witnessed other people giving birth, that doesn't make you any more qualified than the rest of us, who have quite obviously not just blindly made the birth choices we've made...there was a lot of thought and research done, and from the sound of things (and from my own experience) a lot of conversation WITH medical professionals (docs, MW and IMs) who were able to provide information and suggest the most appropriate course of care specific to the patient.
You don't want to be judged, or swayed from the belief that homebirth is 'bad', but you are doing the same thing when you try and dismiss that fact that hospitals ARE risky, medical professionals ARE infalliable, and just because IM's are making money DOES not make them less qualified, or less knowledgeable. You're not being fair, and I don't think you are listening to the rest of us...some of us ARE trying to understand the other side of things, but you seem so intent that hospitals are 'perfect' and the only places that any baby should be born, that women don't know their own bodies as well as the STRANGER we've entrusted our care to, and those that choose homebirth are really selfish and all about what we want, and not about bringing a baby SAFELY into the world.
I don't get it!! We've all obviously done our homework on our choices, and none of us have gone through 9 months of pregnancy, labour and delivery without some sort of EXPERT opinion.

Sorry, sorry...I've been trying to keep myself objective, but this is getting me nuts!! I'm off now...I'll see you all on the other threads!!!

abeeceedee - I commented a few pages back that you seem very anti-IMs and asked why. I'd like to repeat the question.

Also, if you're going to use your experience to justify your position please will you elaborate on what your job is and, similarly, what speciality your husband has as a doctor?

aligrylls - I had a 60 hour labour with only pethidine and TENS with my first (MLU transfer to hospital) - by the time I delivered I hadn't slept due to pre-labour pains for a whole week and had burst all the capillaries in my face, second time was a 12 hour labour at home with only TENS and my recent twin labour in MLU with TENS and entonox was 11 hours. The pain was easier to cope with when I was at home with my second, presumably because I was much more relaxed. I think all women could cope without pain relief but agree that there's no reason why they should if they don't want to. People did give birth before epidurals. I think IME the less pain relief you can manage with the easier the labour and the better the birth. I found I sought pain relief to relieve the stress rather than the pain.

sabire - Our PCT just agreed a homebirth for a 38 year old having her first baby. I think often PCTs will agree to homebirths which are more risky, agreeing a homebirth doesn't reduce the risk. I personally wouldn't attempt a homebirth if I'd had a ventouse delivery first-time around even if I suspected it was just because I'd had an epidural. Attempting a homebirth in this situation wouldn't be safer than giving birth in hospital because you don't really know why you needed the extra help to get the baby out. That's what my point was. The situations where homebirth may be safer than hospital birth are where a woman has had uncomplicated previous deliveries and an uncomplicated pregnancy. These are not the only situations where a homebirth might be agreed however.

Oh...BTW...if I could get gas and air piped into my walls, I'd pay a fortune to do it...just heaven!!! LOL

We seem to have veered off the subject of homebirth and into pain management somehow. I think that it is insulting and dangerous to term women who opt for pain relief in labour 'wimpy', how can you ever compare one person's pain to another? How can you ever know that your personal experience of pain in labour is the same as the next persons? Some women wouldn't even consider getting pregnant if they weren't able to count on the fact that they could get pain relief if they wanted to and it is extremely unhelpful when other women contribute to the myth that you are somehow 'better' than those who choose pain relief if you do it drug free.

ABCD, if homebirths are so dangerous, why do community midwifes, GPs and many obstricians support them (all of whom have medical qualifications)? My consultant believes that if more low risk woman were supported in the home then it would free up resources in hospitals for higher risk births.

sorry obstetrician

question - does geography play a part in whether you can have a home birth or not? What I mean is, if you are say 45 mins drive from the nearest hospital will the midwife/doctor say that you have to give birth in hospital?

I agree that we cant possibly comment on other women's perception of pain. Presumably there is some truth in the idea that we can have varying pain 'thresholds'; and whether this is to do with how painful the pain actually is, or whether it is to do with how we experience it in our minds; is irrelevant really.

I must admit that I find it a bit of a shame when women have already decided they're going to have as many drugs as possible before they even know what labour feels like. I would advise any woman to keep an open mind and see how it goes on the day but I certainly don't look down upon people who choose lots of pain relief.

My labours were quite short and I was able to get by on G&A for the first one and just Tens and birthing pool for the 2nd. If they'd been the sort that go on for days, I may well have wanted an epidural...and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to be worrying about whether others thought I was some sort of failure for doing so.

Also, are we just talking drugs or any kind of pain relief? Given that Tens, Aromatherapy oils and birthing pools are all considered to be forms of pain relief, I can't imagine there are that many women going through labour without any pain relief whatsoever?

woozlet; I think anyone can choose a HB. An ex-colleague lived in some remote part of Scotland when she had her son and given that the nearest hospital was at least a 3 hour drive away, a HB was considered by far the safest option for her.

abeeceedee - You're doing exactly what you accuse sabire of... Your husband is a doctor, this is really incredibly irrelevant, you work supporting women with fistulae in Ethiopia, again irrelevant. I don't believe the things I believe about childbirth are stupid. I believe in individualised care and support for natural childbirth with sensible interventions only as and when they are necessary. Medicine should support childbirth but not control it.

Are you really disputing that women have more interventions in hospital? It is well documented that the effect of epidural anaesthetic particularly, increases a low-risk woman's chances of having interventions. Also that stress prolongs labour. If a woman is stressed by being in hospital this may prolong her labour so it is logical, if a woman has a good obstetric history and a normal pregnancy and would feel more comfortable at home, to support her to labour and deliver there. Routine CTG monitoring policies for uncomplicated singleton pregnancies have been scrapped because they were shown to have no benefit to the mother or baby and simply increased the section rate.

I don't think so Woozlet, my friend who just had her 3rd DC was actively encouraged to have a HB as she is 45 mins from hospital and her 2nd had been born so quickly. Right enough her 3rd DC was born 32 mins after her first twinge of labour and she was very glad to be at home and not on the motorway! Not sure about other people's experiences but I think that most midwives just make it very clear to you exactly how long it could take in a worst case scenario to get you to hospital i.e. If there was a major incident which was taking up ambulance resource. I think the main thing to remember is that it is very, very rare to have a true emergency on your hands where you absolutely have to be in hospital with no time to spare. Midwives in a homebirth monitor you very closely and will insist on a transfer at the first sign of all not being well. Mine also went through a detailed questionnaire with me to try to establish that I wasn't going refuse a transfer if advised to do so.

Just read a bit on an independent midwives website -

"Is homebirth safe for a first baby?
Pregnancy and birth are normal life events. Following a healthy pregnancy, there is no reason why your first baby cannot be born at home. Every woman in Britain has the right to a home birth whatever the circumstances. Breaking with convention is always difficult, but there is a growing body of research that indicates that birth at home is safer than birth in hospital following a normal pregnancy."

"I have been told I can't have a homebirth by my consultant but still want one, will you take me on?
Independent Midwives support women's choices. If a woman has made a fully informed choice then in most circumstances we will support you. Many Independent Midwives take on the care of women who are deemed "high risk" for example: women who have had previous caesareans, women with pre-existing medical conditions and women carrying twins to name a few. I am happy to discuss all your options with you."

So what are your thoughts on the more "high risk" ones who still want to give birth at home?

woozlet - they are high-risk. A homebirth with an untested pelvis is always going to be high-risk. Clearly it is up to a mother to choose but you could hardly argue that a HB for a first baby would be better for the baby. The woman might be more relaxed but she doesn't know what type of pain relief she might want, she doesn't know if her baby will fit through her pelvis, how long her labour will be, if she is likely to need assistance. Too many unknown variables. It is more likely a woman in this situation would need to be transferred to hospital at some time during labour because the midwives caring for her will be more conscious of the higher risk.

Yes def being U. Do the research!

Curiosity - how ridiculous to say that all first labours are 'high risk', going into hospital doesn't automatically lower any risks known or unknown. It is true that more first timers are transferred but the vast majority are because of a failure to progress or prolonged labour which is more likely to happen in a first labour. Having a homebirth can't increase risk, a birth is either risky or it isn't, it doesn't matter where it happens.

Hi,

I think I'm going to call time for myself on this discussion now... I sense that there are some of you here who would argue the toss with me till the cows come home, but as an infrequent user of this site, I don't want to get drawn any further into debating with people I don't even know. Not because I don't think I am right - I stand by my views - but I am heavily pregnant, tired and honestly have better things to do now than argue about birth choices.I have made mine, and you have all made yours.

I'm finished with this thread now and mumsnet in general I think. Thanks for providing an interesting debate.

Caroline

Sorry to see you go abeeceedee. I have long since given up on this argument.

In France they give an epidural as a matter of course. It is like the UK in reverse. Therefore, it is not rare in France.

Also, do you actually know any of these "untraumatised" people. My mother gave birth to my sister no pain relief - when I asked her about this labour her eyes rolled to the back of her head and an omg expression was in her eyes.

Anyway, detracting from my next point - do you ever think that given the state of the NHS that there is something in it for them if you have a homebirth? oh just a little. One less delivery suite to worry about, bed and set of pain relief meds to worry about.

Anyway this is a stupid argument because in the end those of you who have your opinions don't really like to discuss you just like to try to wear people down with your views. Therefore it is not really a debate, as you have probably not changed your mind about anything and more to the point you are incapable of seeing the other side's view.