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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think home births are selfish?

563 replies

woozlet · 10/11/2009 09:47

I just watched a 'desperate midwives' that I had recorded and there was a home birth on it which went wrong. It worked out ok in the end and the baby was ok. But I was really scared watching it, it just seemed like an unnecessary risk to take.

OP posts:
abeeceedee · 14/11/2009 10:35

I'd like to invite some of you on this thread to step outside your spoiled Western bubble for a minute and consider the reality of giving birth in a non medicalised environment.

Birth is,indeed, as many of you point out, a natural process. But let us not confuse natural with "best" or "safe" as sadly that is not always the case. Sometimes, when things are left down to nature, they can go very badly wrong. And that is where modern medicine is needed.

I work for an international charity and have spent much time overseas working with women in the majority world who simply do not have the luxury of modern hospitals and healthcare that we have in this country. Sadly for them, when childbirth goes wrong, it will ruin their life.

There is a hospital in Ethiopia, one of a few in Africa, which treats women with obstetric fistulae. This is a condition which, because of modern medicine and healthcare, is now almost unheard of in the western world.

It happens when a young woman gives birth without proper medical care. I know that's not something that has been advocated here, but to make the point that birth is not the gentle, safe, natural process some of you appear to think it always should be. Their baby gets stuck and eventually dies,and the woman is then able to expel its dead body. By this time she will have suffered a fistula which at its worst will have torn a hole in her vaginal wall and leave her leaking urine and faeces for the rest of her life unless she can reach a fistula hospital who will perform the simple operation that is required to repair her body. She will usually be ostracised by her family and may turn to prostitution or begging to survive. These are women who would have benefitted from a caesarean section or forceps - and they usually start off labouring in their own homes.Please take a look

www.fistulafoundation.org/hospital/

Perhaps when I next visit this hospital I should let the poor women know that,some Western women, in their great wisdom and experience, think that birth should be a natural thing, that intervention is something that should be kept to a minimum?I think not. Because it is an attitude that shows great disrespect to these women and the countless women who died in childbirth in this country and others before the advent of modern medicine.

I should also point out that there seems to be a great deal of confusion about cause and effect amongst some of you. Going to hospital and having a caesarean section or intervention does not necessarily mean that the second thing is caused by the first!! Does going into a cancer hospice cause you to die of cancer?Of course not. When things happen concurrently, it doesn't mean one was caused by the other!

And to the original poster no you are not being unreasonable. As a mother, I put my baby first in birth as in life. There are circumstances when it is appallingly selfish to pursue a home birth.For example,if a doctor or midwife advises you that your pregnancy is high risk and you should deliver in a hospital, you should take that advice... who is the expert here? I'm afraid, despite what some of you may think, it's NOT you. I have heard of women selfishly ignoring the advice of the medical profession (sometimes hiring independent midwives, who as uninsured business people will pretty much deliver anyone at home)and tragedy ensuing.Although the likelihood is that you will probably get away with a home birth,that does NOT mean it is the safest option. I could go out in my car tonight without a seatbelt, drive in a quiet low risk area, and not get killed. I could also go out with my seatbelt on, drive down the motorway - a high risk accident zone - and be killed in a crash.That does not mean that driving without a seatbelt is safer than driving with one. Other factors come into play that colour the statistics.

I do not wish to be "flamed" or to enter into an aggressive debate. I am just upset and offended by the naive and misguided attitudes displayed on this board, on behalf of women who do not have the choices we have.

Hollyoaks · 14/11/2009 11:03

I had a normal textbook pg with dd, went into labour naturally and all was well for the first 13 hours. However, I had a really heavy show and a lot of blood loss, mw's checked dd's heart rate which had plummeted. I was put on a monitor, waters broken and then a consultant pulled her out with a ventouse. She had the cord wrapped around her neck twice and I was told I never would have been able to deliver her naturally or the cord could have snapped.

Within ten minutes of it all going wrong there was a consultant and team from scbu in the delivery room ready to help. I dread to think the outcome if I had to be transferred from home at that point. I also can't imagine how distressing that would have been for me.

I have no problem with hb's but find it very difficult to understand why you would want to take the risk to both you and the baby.

daisy5678 · 14/11/2009 11:13

abeeceedee great post and really true.

All this 'why shouldn't people give birth where they like?' and 'my boby, my choice' and 'oh,well I'd feel more comfortable at home' is kind of put into perspective when you realise that some people don't even get that choice .

Oh, and babies don't get a choice either, I suppose. I'm glad my mum chose a hospital! I was an ill little baby and, like J, would have died without the medical intervention offered in the hospital.

leamac · 14/11/2009 11:42

I had 3 hospital births and 1 home birth have to say all as painful and stressful as each other, reason fro home birth< my 3rd child was born within 20 minutes start to finish, luckily I was already in hospital, I was adviced by midwife to have homebirth with fourth due to hospital being 2 hours ambulance drive away, reckoning i would have quick labour, if i has chosen to go to hospital either in labour or before labour I would only be allowed an ambulance, whereas if I had home birth but needed to be hospitalised a helicopter would be sent to the field next to my house and i would be in hospital in 35 minutes. So i choose homebirth, gave birth in 18 minutes, midwife never made it in time, husband delivered baby all well, so was i selfish

charleymouse · 14/11/2009 11:49

Okay I know the BM analogy is a bit OTT but I think it provokes thought and is an interesting read.

Can I just say I do not advocate free birthing.

As I relayed earlier I have had a HB after a trouble free pregnancy followed by a highly medicalised pregnancy where I ended up with an emergency section. This probably saved the life of my DT2.

I had one to one care at home by 2 CMWs for my HB.

When I was in a large teaching hospital (admitted at 25 weeks) I was assessed shortly after waters breaking at 31 weeks and told I needed an ECS. It was 2.5 hours later that my boys were delivered. During this time I was left on my own panicking, monitoring my own babies whilst the staff did their handover as I had had the misfortune to go into labour prior to a shift change.

The trauma I had in hospital and the panic I now feel when there has led me to opt for a HB this time round although I know I am a higher risk. I am not stupid. I have weighed up the pros and cons and would rather put my faith in my CMW team who will whisk me off to hospital at the slightest sign of problem than go to hospital first and suffer the anxiety which I know will ensue and probably inhibit my labour.

I do realise some people need interventions (Obviously I had some myself) what I object to is interventions which are as Tangle said for the convenience of birth attendents and due to time scales not necessarily a medical need. I was told after my HB that if I had been in hospital I would have been put on a drip at one stage as I had gone over the guideline time allowed. My MW was not concerned as I and DD were fine so she let me keep to my own schedule.

Fibilou · 14/11/2009 12:03

How has a homebirth debate turned into some sort of implication that all women that chose HBs do so with no medical support ? ABCD, do you actually think that HBing women that get into problems refuse medical assistance ? I see your point about Ethiopia etc but should Western women where the support available at HBs is good be forced into hospital just because we should be grateful that we have the opportunity ? That's just rubbish.
I know quite a lot of women that were booked for HBs and MLU - and when medical advice told them they needed to go into a CLU they did. Your assumption that all women hoping for an intervention free delivery out of hospital all refuse to do what they're told by the midwives and GPs is nonsense. You say you have "heard of" high risk women ignoring obstetric advice -is this actually your own experience or anecdotal evidence from boards such as this ? Cos I don't know anyone that would take that chance with their babies.

And to compare "lack of medical care" in Ethiopia with your assumed "lack of medical care" involved in a HB is like trying to compare parsnips and apples. HBs are attended by very experienced midwives who have drugs, lots of equipment and who transfer to hospital at the slightest chance of anything deviating from the most simple birth.

And as someone said earlier in the thread, midwives are very well trained - that's why my Sil trained for 4 years rather than 5 minutes

anniemac · 14/11/2009 12:14

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Hollyoaks · 14/11/2009 12:15

I said in an earlier post that I have nothing against hb's and its up to the individual to choose. What I find difficult to understand is why you would want to take the risk of having to be transferred to hospital should anything go wrong. At the stage in labour I was at when it went wrong the move from standing upright to the bed was bad enough, never mind having to get into an ambulance and then being wheeled down corridors. It just sounds like this would cause even more stress to both mother and baby than if this occured where the medical help was.

Some posters have also mentioned that a dr or operating theatre may not be available in hospital but if your at home needing to be transferred in surely this is still a risk to add to the possibility that an ambulance may not be available as well.

clankypanky · 14/11/2009 12:30

However abcd, home birth is not about having NO medical intervention, when you have a homebirth you have great midwives on hand who are well trained to recognise problems and arrange hospital if necessary. People who have homebirths arent so stubborn that they are going to shout 'no im having a home birth with no medical intervention because its the natural way' thats a ridiculous thing to think and the reality is that if there were emergency then they would go to hospital. I certainly know that if I had needed it then I would have been able to get to hospital within 10 minutes. To say that people that choose homebirth are selfish on the basis that in Ethiopa people dont have a choice is a load of cobblers. Having a homebirth with 2 trained midwives, clean environment, clean running water and a big bag of equipment to help out is hardly the same as having a baby in Ethiopa is it. Its a bit like the thing you say to your children when they are not eating their dinner....'do you know there are starving children in Africa that would be outraged that you're not eating your dinner' we all know that there is nothing our children can do about that because they are not eating their dinner but we like to make a point...I think thats what you are doing, you fancied telling your story which is no doubt upsetting and so unfair but actually pretty irrelevant to the debate that hb is selfish.
Im sure that I could tell you my heart wrenching story about how badly wrong my HOSPITAL birth went due to medical negligence interference and ignorance but I wouldnt then claim that ALL hospitals births are selfish, because everyone is different. I know that homebirth suits my body in labour better than a hospital one so that is going to be the best route for my baby. OP you are unreasonable to think home birth is selfish, its the most selfless thing Ive ever done.

NaccetyMac · 14/11/2009 12:34

I had the Supervisor of Midwives and one of the most experienced MW at my last birth, and they were utterly fabulous. They were rostered on because it was New Years Eve, so they were the only cover, and I selfishly started labouring at 12 midnight exactly. . I was also selfishly 42+3, and had selfishly discharged myself from hospital, after selfishly having a scan at 42+0 that showed NO indication to induce.

I had the full support of the MW - I had to battle to get it though, and demonstrate that I knew what I was talking about. Junior and less experienced MW were scared out of their wits after about 41+3.

DS1 was a HB at 41+5, and a 24 hour labour which I believe was difficult because I was not well supported by the MW - they were panicking.

I have had a hospital birth. I will never allow anything so horrific to happen to me again.

Hospitals are dangerous places, IMO, and the last place I would want to be as a healthy person with a healthy baby.

daisy5678 · 14/11/2009 12:35

"I know that homebirth suits my body in labour better than a hospital one so that is going to be the best route for my baby."

Clankypanky, that is not proper logic! I don't believe homebirths are about the baby really. I think they're about what the mother prefers.

daisy5678 · 14/11/2009 12:36

"I know that homebirth suits my body in labour better than a hospital one so that is going to be the best route for my baby."

Clankypanky, that is not proper logic! I don't believe homebirths are about the baby really. I think they're about what the mother prefers.

anniemac · 14/11/2009 12:37

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Hollyoaks · 14/11/2009 12:40

If we could predict a safe and normal labour this wouldnt be an issue, but its all about the unknown. Nobody on here can say with 100% certainity that their birth will be straight forward, nor can you say a hospital birth will be without fault but surely its safer to be near the medical equipment and teams should the worst happen?

daisy5678 · 14/11/2009 12:40

They call an ambulance, I guess, for emergencies, which may or may not come in time and get mother and/ or baby to the hospital for treatment in time.

daisy5678 · 14/11/2009 12:40

that was to anniemac

clankypanky · 14/11/2009 12:41

of course its logical givememoresleep, if my body is in distress then my baby will be in distress which will no doubt result in needing intervention!

anniemac · 14/11/2009 12:48

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daisy5678 · 14/11/2009 12:51

Clankypanky, being in a hospital would distress you so much that your baby would become distressed? Really? I would personally be more distressed if my baby died or suffered other consequences of not having had access to medical help in an emergency, but that's just me.

This is one of those private vs state school arguments when nobody will ever change their views.

bedlambeast · 14/11/2009 12:58

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clankypanky · 14/11/2009 13:08

Yes givememoresleep, it is well known that stress to a mother causes a baby distress, the transfer to hospital alone is enough to halt or slow down a strong progressing labour. The physical act of being on your back on a bed or stretcher reduces the supply of oxygen to the baby and causes distress. Being monitored and made to feel 'ill' rather than giving birth causes distress. Being in hospital distressed me, would you like to tell me how I felt and that it didnt? I dont have an express view one way or the other. As I said, hospital suits some and home suits others, you cant expressly say one way or the other what is the right way because life is not that black and white. My 3rd child was a planned homebirth but had I planned a hospital birth it would have actually been selfish for me to pursue it as he came so quickly that getting downstairs to get in an ambulance and then sitting in an ambulance to give birth rather than at home on my bed bearing down with 2 experts at my disposal and my partner and all the medical things we needed.
Well said: bedlamb beast, I whole heartedly agree with you.

curiositykilledhaskittens · 14/11/2009 13:17

abeeceedee - It is well documented that having hospital care during labour and birth is linked to unecessary interventions. Also that one intervention leads to another. Hospitals have stopped routinely offering constant CTG monitoring for normal singleton labour because it was shown to have no beneficial effect and simply increased a woman's chance of having an emergency section. Induction is linked to poorer postnatal outcomes for the baby, having epidural is linked to having difficulty in delivering. There is often a cascade which is begun by having a relatively small intervention and leads to a woman needing more interventions or a section.

There is no medical need for my local maternity unit to have a 33% section rate, we live in a rich area and have too posh to push type mums who were bog eyed at my assertion I wasn't going to have a section for my absolutely healthy twin pregnancy (didn't have a homebirth either but did have an MLU delivery). They are also very interventionist.

What is ideal for all mothers and all babies across the whole world is natural childbirth with good medical support and interventions when necessary. Medical professionals should provide each woman, in each pregnancy, individualised care.

Unfortunately this is not what I have experienced with my local hospital who were at best incompetent and at worst negligent. My first was too small because I had an underlying thyroid condition which hadn't been picked up (not their fault) but they didn't even notice he was tiny - although strong and fine with normal delivery.

My second was a planned homebirth, they knew about my thyroid condition then but completely failed to care for it during pregnancy until they realised they had forgotten 2 weeks before the birth and rushed me for blood tests and monitoring. They diagnosed the baby as small for gestational age at 36 weeks and tried to induce me. I refused until the consultant had reviewed and agreed the plan. When the consultant reviewed he said he could find no evidence that this was anything other than a healthy pregnancy and baby and I should be discharged and homebirth was agreed.

When I laboured the midwives did not believe I was far along because I was calm on the phone and so would not come to assess me despite my mum's assertions that they should. In the end only one made it in time and ran in 20 mins before DD was born and had to deliver her straight away. There were no problems, my birth partners were my mum and sister who are both doctors and could have easily (and did help) delivered the baby without complications but the whole thing was poorly managed by the medical professionals involved. It was still my best birth, most relaxed, easiest, quickest (I tend to have long labours). I recieved poor care for my hospital birth and poor care for my homebirth. It's the level of care which is important, not the place of delivery.

When I found myself pregnant with twins I knew I would have to have a hospital birth but did not trust my local hospital, with whom I had also developed a very poor relationship. We transferred care to Liverpool Women's Hospital and were fortunate enough to have a brilliant midwife-led delivery in the MLU there as it is just down the corridor from the CLU if anything had gone wrong. They were fantastic, really amazing.

I suffer quite badly from white-coat syndrome which actually has a large effect on my blood pressure - monitoring at home saw it stable at 120/80, when in the hospital in the cubicle on my own it was ok but when I was put on CTG monitors or was talking to anyone in a uniform it went up, sometimes to 150/100. It is better for me and my babies not to be exposed to rises in blood pressure and is therefore better and safer for us not to have excessive monitoring or hospital intervention. In the MLU we had intermittent monitoring in labour rather than CTG (which is policy), the hospital were fantastic - they really provided individualised care and my delivery was normal and safe at 40+3 even though it was wholly outside policy for twins - should have been in CLU on constant CTG monitor, not allowed in the pool and delivered by doctors in an operating theatre, had my waters broken, been induced at 38 weeks e.t.c. The care I recieved in the MLU I could have had at home.

It is perfectly possible to provide good medical support at a homebirth for a women with a normal pregnancy and good obstetric history. A homebirth should be well planned, orchestrated, managed and thought about sensibly. How near is the hospital should you need transfer? How many teams are there to deliver you at home? How many women booked for home deliveries around your due date? Have you got a good obstetric history? - How long was your active stage, did you need help with pushing (ventouse/forceps/episiotomy/tearing), what kind of pain relief did you need, have you got good pelvic space, did you have any postnatal complications such as a lot of bleeding? Have you got any underlying health conditions which need monitoring?

If you have a normal pregnancy and good obstetric history then a homebirth is likely to be as safe, if not safer than a hospital birth. Not to mention more comfortable and easier because being comfortable in your birthing environment has a large role to play in the difficulty or ease of your delivery.

Saying childbirth should be natural is not insulting to people in poor countries, those women are pregnant and labouring in extremely poor conditions without any medical support at all. They most likely are very young and therefore have small pelvis', have been malnourished or ill all their lives and throughout pregnancy and then have laboured without support in dirty and cramped conditions. Here we have the opposite problem. I fully believe that the over-medicalisation of birth in this country is contributing to the rise in PND.

clankypanky · 14/11/2009 13:18

Can i just post my experience of homebirths as well as I feel that it must count for something, there seem to be far too many horror stories that homebirth is dangerous but in my experience its not the case. I have had 2 homebirths and one hospital. Hospital...traumatic, homebirths, fantastic. I have 4 friends that had homebirths...all agreed it was the most fantastic thing ever, none had stitches...me included, all babies healthy, all went on to successfully breastfeed almost immediately after birth. 1 friend wanted homebirths with both her children but after labouring naturally for a period of time was apparent it wouldnt happen...successfully transferred to hospital to have baby. 1 other friend who had both her children in hospital, and one sister who had both her children in hospital...both still talk about the horrors of it years on....both struggled to bond with their babies....speaks volumes to me.

anniemac · 14/11/2009 13:32

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daisy5678 · 14/11/2009 13:37

Agree, anniemac. It's like the 'a red car killed my cat so all red cars are driven by crap drivers' theory.

'I know someone who had a horrific hospital experience so hospitals are evil'. Bollocks.

The OP is NBU. Nor am I. Nor are some others. We will never agree though.

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