to think that Gordon Brown was writing with good intentions to the mother of the dead soldier.......does handwriting really matter??

[SquirrelTrap]

I think it is all rather unfair.

I would prefer a scrawled personally written letter than a spell-checked standard Word document letter? I think it is all rather nasty.

hmmm, maybe, but i'm pretty sure that they said they'd only been back for a short while, definitely nothing like five years.

here is the doc, shown aug 25

Wow that's even more than I thought in the criminal justice system.
Although I do wonder (and I hope no one takes offence - I'm not talking about engineers etc such as the DH mentioned earlier here) but I do wonder if actually the army keeps a fair few out of prison too.

I think that figure needs to be put into a bit more context before I can decide whether to be shocked or not.

What percentage of the population has served or is serving in the Armed Forces. You don't have to have been in for long to been called a Veteran! Does the figure include reservists.

I would personally find the figure much more interesting with more information.

well get googling then, mcdreamy!

What do you think I have been doing for the last 2 minutes - I've given up now

20 minutes not 2 minutes - I don't give up that easily!!!!!!!

lol. maybe it's buried somewhere on the very user-friendly mod site.

thing is, though, wrt military, surely they're supposed to come out of there with a heightened sense of right and wrong etc? so even if we don't know the veteran figures, shouldn't ex-army etc be held to a higher standard having been through training, served queen and country etc? and it IS interesting that mostly they're in for crimes of violence.

Those figures are frightening. DSS wants to join to do engineering, and to be honest I don't think he is anywhere near ready for what he will see/experience when he is posted. He is so naive, and such a lovely, lovely young man I can't stand the thought of him going, (and he's not even mine!) I guess thats what the training is for though to help lose the naivety.

He went back to the recruitment office last week and was encouraged to think about becoming part of the bomb disposal team. DH was about to explode himself I think. They offer the money and glamour in the recruitment office but not the other side of it, thankfully DH has always been able to go with him to stop him joining on the spot encourage him to think it through.

Interestingly, when he has spoken to the RAF and the navy they were much more encouraging about further education and being a more mature person before joining.

It is a very worrying time.

to be fair i don't suppose any employer tells you the downside of a job at the interview stage. i'd maybe suggest that he watches that doc, sc, it's really heart breaking.

I hear what you're saying but what % of veterans aren't and have never been in prison for DV crimes or any other crime? Maybe the majority DO come out with a general sense of right and wrong.

What % of DV crimes are committed by ex service men?

or women?

Slightlycrumpled - you must be very worried! Do you know anyone in the services that he could talk to?

Thats part of the problem, no we don't.

He has been part of the army cadets from early teens, and has done an awful lot of exciting things with them. I think that the leader of the group that he is in was in the forces and he has encouraged him, or at least DSS enjoys listening to his stories of life in the army.

Aitch, no of course many employers don't give the negatives at an interview, but I do think this is slightly different. DSS has a very supportive family behind him, who want to encourage him to follow his dream but make him aware of the down sides, like death! For those very young men going that don't have that I worry how informed they are.

Back to the OP - new survey suggests that the Jacqui Janes/GB episode has damaged the Sun, made voters more sympathetic towards Gordon

Ha, Ha, and indeed, Ha.

god, yes, absolutely. but i'm sure they're very skilled at making that seem unreal to young boys, in fact i think most young boys think they're immortal anyway.

mcdreamy, of the sizeable veteran population in prison currently, a population that has grown by 30% in the last few years so presumably is linked to the current conflict, the majority are in for crimes of violence, particularly DV. this, i feel, addresses many of the points that have been made on this thread, specific to the military.

Aitch, the Guardian article you linked to does point out that a lot of the crimes committed can be linked to untreated PTSD and combat stress, rather than any innate viokence on the part of the person committing the crime.

Certainly, it is documented that mental health provision for the Forces is parlous at best, leaving overstretched charities sucj as Combat Stress, the RBL and SSAFA to pick up the slack. We are being told that things are improving but it will take some time before that filters through to affect the percentages in prison.

totally, absolutely. has anyone seriously suggested that there is an innate violence at play? again, though, given the amount of publicity about mh and aftercare problems for decades now (born on fourth of july etc, endless docos and articles) again i do feel that this is part of the pact, unfortunately. it just doesn't make sense that you can un-train a trained killer.

"has anyone seriously suggested that there is an innate violence at play?"~

Not in direct reference to your point about the prison population but there have been a few posts on the thread about "trained killers" and the inability to turn off that training, which perhaps means that some people think that the violence of the profession creeps into daily life.

"has anyone seriously suggested that there is an innate violence at play?"
ah, that might've been me, when I said that I wonder if the army keeps some young lads out of prison.

oh right, yes that was me who said that, i totally believe it. it doesn't mean that they have an innate violence, quite the opposite, but if you've been trained to access your aggression and focus it to a point where you can kill someone if 'necessary' (and that's an interesting definition i think) then i believe that it must be incredibly hard not to let that leak out in daily life. and as i say, the fact that the vet prison pop is mostly in there for crimes of violence, particularly dv, seems to suggest that there is some truth in that.

don't think so, paisley, they were talking about it before you said that. and yes, it's probably true as well, there must be a balance there, between keeping lads on the straight and narrow and then sending them off the rails afterwards.

I can only speak for me, if it happend to me I would appreciate the gesture.

I can only speak for me, if it happend to me I would appreciate the gesture.

'It's flat out crazy to assume that this govt would break the habit of history and fund wars to the satisfaction of the military wives. there's a financial tipping point, presumably, of how many men the govt is prepared to lose (as you point out, the current death rate is low so this contradicts your position that they are so vastly under-resourced) and how much it's costing them. a soldier signs up to be part of that equation, however unpalatable that is.'

It's not what I want Aitch, it's what the Forces themselves would like. They are under resourced; there are not enough ships and submarines for instance to fulfil the tasking for the RN, so instead of getting the supposed period of leave between deployments, they come in, turn around and go back out again. Jobs are gapped for considerable periods of time. The same is happening with Afghanistan and the tempo of operations. Under resourcing can also mean with man power. You will obviously have read about the Nimrod inquiry. This is taken from the BBC website:

'An independent review into a fatal 2006 Nimrod crash, which killed 14 service personnel, has accused the MoD of sacrificing safety to cut costs.

The highly critical report, by Charles Haddon-Cave QC, said the Afghanistan crash occurred because of a "systemic breach" of the military covenant.

A safety review of the Nimrod MR2 carried out by the MoD, BAE Systems and QinetiQ was branded a "lamentable job".'

The point is that under resourcing costs lives, 14 in that case and it is ongoing.

If my db is killed, then if it was due to lack of equipment I WILL moan, as well as mourn. I presume I have your permission for the latter?

'I have to accept that you have never heard of any DV in all your years of being involved with the military, but in all honesty your use of the 'we're a feisty lot' just speaks of someone with their ears tightly shut. i'd be interested to see what dittany thinks, but ime (having dealt with WA and Zero Tolerance) tellingly it's a word often used by families who don't want to acknowledge that a female family member is being abused, that she's 'too feisty for that to happen to her etc etc'.'

Yes you do have to accept it I'm afraid, and it is true. My friends are very feisty women; we are professionals for the most part, and we all speak our minds. My ears and eyes are not tightly shut; neither am I stupid. In 43 years of being a Naval daughter and wife, I have seen no evidence of dv amongst my fellow wives and friends, or amongst my female relatives who were/are married to serving officers.