to think many parents who send their children to the lower quality independent schools are so pretentious it is cringeworthy?

[Barrelofloves]

Is it due to insecurity? Because I have found the seriously loaded/titled folk are not like that at all.

You don't need to go to Habs for that to happen. Happened to people at my state grammar in the 1990s.

Another NW mum/old Habs girl here as well

Have to say IMO Habs was a very pressurised environment, little pastoral care etc. Great if you were higly competitive and of a certain personality type, not so good for others. A couple of my friends had terrible home lives and were very obviously disturbed, but no-one was interested.

Shame really.

I would only send my own children there if they had that certain type of personality, for people who are not driven it is a tough place to be.

Well and if I could afford it, which I can't

NW London not NW

(hello xenia glad to see you are still around)

'the highest exam results in state and private are all concentrated here. '

I think it's pretty obvious. If you take A level results in proper subjects from the last 10 years you'll find schools like NLCS in the top 5 virtually always. Also Henrietta Barnet state school from memory is near the top and that's in the same area roughly. We also have Habs boys and girls, St Paul's boys and girls, westminster, Merchant taylor's etc etc.... There are probably more good schools in terms of top of league tables consistently around here in commtable distance than anywhere in the country.

My brother's chidlren are at a schoolin the NW and my sister's elsewhere and intheir areas there proabbly is one local school which is in those leagues.

The difference around here is there are so many good schools, state and private. Why aer the best state schools in terms of exam results in the SE of England? Possibly because there are grammars in Bucks and Kent and the state Jewish schools and the private muslim school I think does quite well too.

Anyway where are more people in London than the whole of Scotland (we should declare UDI and refuse to subsidise the rest of the country perhaps) so I suppose it's inevitable the people who are more clever are here.

You pay your money and make your choice. Are you judging a book by it's cover? Who cares if someone is up themselves or or a perceived Neanderthal? (No offence to either party BTW) Does it really matter? As long as children are safe, happy, cared for and given a chance in life - does it matter where they are educated?

It doesn't always follow that the most expensive school will suit the child. Some schools have different ethos that some children can adapt to happily and others can't - which in my experience can be found in all schools (state etc) and can have equally, what did you call them? Ah yes, pretentious / cringworthy parents.

London has the best independents. It is fiercely competitive and pressurised to get in. A friend went to Westminister having been almost intensively coached since birth by his very driven, ambitious parents. They spent a quarter of a million 10 years ago to buy him a flat (a shoe box) so that he could study there after school until they finished work and came to pick him up at 7.30pm. He did this from 11-18, 4 days a week.

My DH is a scientist - he loves his job. He doesn't earn mega bucks and he didn't have a first class education (state/poly/redbrick uni).

My DD wants to be an author (she's only 8 ). Whether or not she gets there I am sure will be independent of what school she goes to.

For a greater chance of your DC getting a job that earns mega bucks you pay mega bucks. Maybe it only takes them 2 years to earn the whole of what their education cost. If that it your measure of success then you might as well aim high. Go for the schools that give you/them the best 'pedigree'.

are all these schools feeding oxbridge?
surely all this vast expense - flats- pressure etc - that is the prize ? (or ucl /harvard/yale)

People who are more clever are here?

Do you mean there are more clever people where you are Xenia?

Yes, London has very good independents and may be people gravitate to the South East - I did - for work in good jobs so then those people tend to have bright children whereas if you moved to the commune in Wales and educated the child at the local comp you might not as a family value exam passing education in the same way. However my view is that the state grammars are the dull crammers of today and schools like NLCS and Habs and MTs where my chidlren went but I can mention as they've all left are not in any sense cramming. They educate the broader individual. my children got as much from sport music and other arts at those schools than academics. I wanted them educated beyond the syllabus and valued as individuals for their own talents,.

I wanted them exposed to a range of possibilities, hobbies, help for the poor, activities, religious events, music, sport so that they could choose from that broad range. They ended up liking nothing I kind of predicted they might as their adult hobbies - the grade 8 cellist is out playing lacrosse this morning but that doesn't matter. In fact the hobbies are not hugely relevant although they give them huge pleasure but the fact they can debate and discuss things with me and have opinions is good. of course you can get that at state schools although my daughter said the state schoolers she met at university seemed not to have opinions or want to enter into discussions in tutorials but that might just be bad luck from her tutorial groups. Perhaps there is less self confidence in state school pupils than those in private schools.

Now forgotten the point I was making... someone mentioned earning a lot. I am not even sure exams are needed for that although it makes it easier to get your foot in the door at Goldman Sach if your education was good but there's nothing to stop any mumsnet poster trading shares at home or setting up a business and real wealth in the UK comes from running businesses not working in most supposedly well paid professions.

I want my chidlren to haev the mind set that you can do anything. When I was checking the exam results on my local comp which is about 2 minutes from house 34% a - C in GCSEs... I saw a quote from one gilr who actualyl passed a few exams. She said - the teachers convinced me I could get to university. Instead a child sent say to NLCS where 100% go to good univesrities and from a home sending a child there it is almost assumed they will. Low parental and school expectations hold children back so much unless those children get on line or into the library as I did as a teenager and realise what is out there.

My DH works for Goldman Sachs, he has rubbish GCSE's, even worse A levels and a degree from a n old poly.He got in there because of sheer hard graft and being extremely good at what he does. His boss doesn't have a degree and left school at 16. When they interview they have no interest in people's degrees or education they just want to know who can do the job. He recently turned down 2 ex Habs boys because they were all talk and no substance.

Many of the 'top' universities find that some privately educated students with top grades find it very hard once they are there

Those top grades are achieved by a lot of hand holding and spoon feeding. Hence the largest intake at Oxford now is from state grammar schools (where they certainlydon't tend to hand hold and spoon feed). Many of the Oxbridge admissions tutors who come on Mumsnet are at great pains to point out that universities are more interested in getting the genuinely bright rather than those with all the extra curricular things such as climbing Mount Kilimanjaro or helping 'poor' people in Africa.

Habs not a crammer? Help for the poor???? Must have changed a bit since my day I certainly don't remember anyone even mentioning the poor... And they certainly had music/sport etc but you had to be good at it. There was no chance of doing things if you weren't good at them, only interested, as the whole point of doing anything was winning.

Brilliant for some types of people (ie those who have a highly competitive personality), not so brilliant for those with different drivers.

I was born 1973 babybarrister and in the juniors as well

Xenia - your children can have 'the mind set that you can do anything' irrespective of the schools they go to. From reading your posts I am quite convinced that your children would be brimming with 'confidence' whether or not you chose the best schools for them. The danger is that childrens' indentities can be very tied up in their path through education and they can overlook the fact that it is not the school that hath bequeathed them with such virtues.

A case in point - Your DD is already making judgements of people based on their path through education: 'although my daughter said the state schoolers she met at university seemed not to have opinions or want to enter into discussions in tutorials but that might just be bad luck from her tutorial groups'.

Giving your children access to a priviledged education is not the only way to bestow on them good values, the desire to dream and the will to succeed. But it is a way of perpetuating the divide between the 'haves' and the 'have nots'.

I am not saying you should sacrifice your DC at the alter of a rubbish state school but to completely rule out the good ones and opt for a rubbish independent (with reference to the OP)shows a lack of ...something. I'm not sure what. There is no special teacher training college for the teachers in independent schools and whilst it is convenient to have the 'whole person' educated under one roof there are advantages to customising the education of the whole person that I am sure even you can't deny Xenia.

Imsonottelling we must have been there are the same time and I agree with everything you say and from what I understand it's even more competitive now. That's not to say that I won't consider it for my DC's but only if I think that they will thrive in the environment. Infact we just withdrew our application for 7+ for DS, I am pretty confident he'd get the place but he's just not tough enough for it at the moment.

There's also the possibillity that 'state schoolers' can't be arsed to get into a debate with some of the other students in a tutor group. 'Confidence' can be seen as 'arrogance'in some circles and it's probably not worth wasting their time and intelligence to get involved in a debate with some students.

Gosh of course. Plenty of silly parents think if they pay it will always be better when that's not always so but I do think on the whole the better schools are in the private sector.

I know quite a bit about graduates getting jobs asI've three or almost three of my own and see their friends getting them too and whilst I agree you can get into most things by the back door or through sheer hard work and to make money you can even work for yourself (as I do) but it is without doubt easier if you have the grades, CV and right degree. Plenty of the graduate entry web sites will not you progress with the automatic applicatnio form unless you have particular qualifications.

None of my children have been pushed although I accept schools like Habs get the best out of children and people would be silly to send a child who was a bit thick or wanted not to work at things to schools like that, and none have been overly fussed about being best in the class ever, in fact I joke about it but I do think their education (and home life and genes) have given them has helped them in lots of ways and that if women have a choice of being an artist and having to try to find a house near a good state school or leading Goldman Sachs she probably owes it to her chidlren to take the GC route so she can fund them at good schools and not just sleep her way into that income level by marrying well as that is morally indefensible.

"I just don't see any need to pay £12k per child for school fees when I can get a similar education in a state school."

Well there are a lot of different sorts of independent schools. Fiercely academic schools and schools that cater for the nice but dim (the second rank of independents).

The point is that the parents who choose the second rank of independents do so because they believe (and I actually agree with them) that the overall education is far better at those sorts of schools. You do not believe that therefore you don't spend the money.

Up to you. Surely if you think they are wasting their money then that's up to them.

But there is a duty to more then just your offspring. I could have followed any career I wanted but chose one that fulfilled my obligations to society. Society would crumble if we all became bankers and lawyers.

There are quite a few of us on here I think yayitstheweekend!

The interesting thing about all of this is that I am still in touch with a few people from school, and a lot of my other friends went to a super selective grammar. None of us have done particularly "well" from a high powered/earning potential type perspective. Although we are/were all obviously brught and had teh advantage of a good education.

Why is it? My guess is that there is an additional component, which is down to personality, and which can't be learnt. People make friends with people who have similar values and attitudes - so I suppose that is why we are all similar in my friendship group.

I also suspect that people who do have that personality will often succeed (measured in terms of career/wealth) whatever education they have.

although i will say IMO all private schools are lower quality

Xenia...are you serious? You don't know anybody who sends their children to a state school?

Well, rich girls bubble must be fun. Do your children now talk to people who are state educated, or do they try to avoid them in social situations? Or at work? or is that a bit tricky, and anyway, no state educated children could possibly get jobs in the same sector your privileged offspring inhabit.

But then I see you advocate one dropping dream of art as a career for Goldman Sachs so she can, err, afford private education and marry well?

Listen to yourself.

Oh, and love the "thicker' children comment {shock]

take back the marry well comment, read it wrong.