to have felt that calling the police would have been appropriate in this instance?

[Sunfleurs]

I have thought a couple of days before posting this as I know it is going to be a sticky one.

I took dc to soft play and then for Sunday Dinner this weekend at a local Wacky Warehouse. This place often has Irish Travelling Families there, think there is a site fairly local.

During the meal there was a couple at the next table with two children a baby and one who looked about 3. The 3 yo was refusing to eat her meal and the mother was really angry, hissing and swearing at the child. In the end she pointed her knife at her daughter and told her she was going to "f*cking stab her!". The Dad looked a bit annoyed and said something to the Mum and then just wandered off to the bar to get another pint.

I was absolutely horrified and said so to the people I was with. One of them works with some men who are travellers and he just said "there is no point saying anything, thats just how they are, it's just how they bring their kids up, if you say anything, she will most likely go for you and you have your own kids to think of". . He was not at all surprised by it.

I haven't been sure about posting this but it has been on my mind and I wish I had done something, probably called the police rather than said anything. What do you all think of this? and what, if anything would you have done?

And I know I would have too, Morris. And would have felt badly about it, but stepping in would have made absolutely no difference to that child's subsequent life but, worse-case scenario, might have triggered some nasty repercussions for me and mine.

And I'm as guilty as we all are for walking by on the other side and contributing to the way things are in this country nowadays where kids like Baby P can die through abuse and neglect.

Yes I though of that, but I am interested to know why whenever there is a post about ear piercing in babies (which I think is universally agreed not to be acceptable) it is nearly always asked what cultural background the child and mother are from as this is relevant.

I felt that this was relevant to this situation as my friend used their ethnicity as a reason NOT to get involved in a shocking situation.

The point about whether the fact that they were travellers or not is relevant is interesting. In some ways it isn't at all - however the rates of infant and child deaths in the travelling community is HUGELY higher than in the general population, and the police/health/social services struggle to get to grips with it. That is not me being discriminatory - its stating a fact. Do we risk discrimination by concentrating on a known 'at risk' group because of their cultural heritage, or do we stand back so as not to seem biased, and let the trend for far higher than average deaths and injury carry on?

With ear-piercing, it is common practice in some European countries (Spain, for example) to have a baby's ears pierced as a new-born. I remember years back, someone I knew who was Gibraltarian, married into a very upper-middle-class family and subsequently was mixing in some monied circles in Chelsea. She was appalled to think that her husband's friends were judging her to be "common" (her words) as her baby DD had earrings.

I didn't know that Notyummy.

I have no issues with this or indeed any ethnic group. If I did I wouldn't live in London and I wouldn't frequent restaurants and soft play that travelling families use regularly would I? I just felt it was relevant in this particular situation because of what my friend said. It came as a total surprise to me that I would be advised not to intervene in this situation because of their ethnicity. Why on earth should that not be up for sensible and balanced discussion?

I knew that this would turn into that kind of debate when all I really felt crap about is not being able to help a 3 year old whose mother threatened to stab her. I felt helpless.

I had no problem with the term 'traveling family', but then I'd have no trouble with you saying 'gypsy' as I don't think either are anything to be ashamed of. I was just pointing out that it would be the same situation if the parents had been a doctor and a lawyer.

All we really see in situations like that is one brief glimpse of their lives. Anything we think we know about their situation is just a guess. Perhaps they were a doctor and a lawyer who has just come from working on their allotment.

Now we all do make those judgments all the time. It's a very natural and human thing, but we have to keep reminding ourselves that we are doing it so that it doesn't color our decision too much.

nancy glad you intervened even though not best outcome.

Was 8 months pg with dd1 (so over 2 years ago) at a holiday park heard a bloke call his 3 or 4 yr old a 'fxxxing cxxt'.

Was with my male friend who had to hold me back to stop me intervening. We both walked away as just not safe for me to get involved at that much pregnant.

We still both think about it now and both wish we'd said something.

Shocking behaviour from that particular set of parents but I think your friends attitude and ideas about 'that's how they are' suck.

Bad parents come from all sorts of social backgrounds.

Isn't it depressing, Sunfleurs, when you're posting about child abuse as shocking as this, how little time it takes to lose the important info and/or advice you might get under a deluge of off-the-point race posts?

Under the circs, I can't see how repeated efforts to try and accuse you of racism for simply naming an ethnic group are as important/helpful as answering the question you asked about how to help an abused child. But hey, that's just from someone who works with a BAME charity.

I would not have called the police - they couldn't have done much. It's grim - but you could not have done anything to help, and it could just have been a very bad day for the Mum.

What DuelingFANGo said.

It must be weighing heavily on your mind, but with such aggression the mother showed the child I have no doubt she would have been violent toward you. Travelling people is relevant as they do not abide by the same life code as you and I and so it is less likely you would be able to approach them in a way that they wouldn't see as hostile and interfering.

Nasty thing to overhear but hopefully it was just an empty threat. Still horrible for the little girl though.

Mention of travellers was relevant as your friend used it as a reason not to get involved. Not sure why people are getting their knickers in a twist about that - you weren't judging them for being travellers, you were judging her for threatening her child.

Not sure what on earth you can do about it, unless you happen to know who their HV might be (given your friend vaguely knows them)?

I think that is exactly what my friend was trying to say starwhores and he knows a fair few of them well.

I knew it would happen though auntyitaly that is why I didn't post and thought for a few days before I did.

I really hate the way some subjects are off limits on MN, when it comes to race issues it is just not possible to discuss them in a balanced way and I think thats really sad.

I live in London in the most ethnically diverse neighbourhood you could imagine, my child goes to a school where over thirty diffent languages are spoken by the children who attend there, I love it here and love that my child experiences all these different cultures. This is part of my every day life but there are certain subjects both positive and negative I could never discuss on here without being accused of racism. How can any degree of racial harmony be achieved if we can't even talk about it. Its a joke really.

Thanks edam, thats exactly it. To get a clear picture of the situation all the information needed to be given.

Travellers parked their caravan's on our works property a few years ago and there was a young girl we'd see, looked about 25 with 4 little kids and pregnant living in the caravan the same size as my bedroom. No wonder the poor souls are stressed, there should be more support in this day and age.

So do peoplehere think that this kind of parenting is pretty much the standard of parenting for all traveller families? Really?

Where's your source....

Those poor children

I have seen a few real sad mistreatments and it breaks your heart. You just want to do and say something, but in the two circumstances I would have put myself in danger I think - verbal abuse for sure, physical - who knows. Shame we can do something hey

I think people here think that due to the nature and outsider status travellers enjoy that they wouldn't want to get involved and wouldn't know how to deal with the situation described in the OP.

I don't think that, it did not occur to me until my friend said it, having seen a mother threaten to stab her child though it did make me think a little. I am quite sure that not all travelling families discipline their children in this way but in this instance it was used as a reason for non intervention so I think it is relevant.

Had I ever thought about it before from what I have seen and those families I have spoken to at soft play etc I would have said they children in travelling families are in the main well loved children, with benign neglect being a large factor in their upbringing. Thats my experience anyway.

DuelingFANGO has just asked the question I was about to.

YANBU to wish you had intervened, you can still call social services, after all, if one of your friends knows of them then they can surely tell you where their site is.

YABU to have blindly accepted your friends statement that "that's the way they bring their kids up". Massive generalisation and not true.

I know people within the travelling community through work, for the most part they are like any other parents in that they love their children and do what they think is right according to their particular culture and beliefs.
Of course there are some travellers who are also bad parents, just as there are bad parents amongst middleclass, working class upper class etc etc.

Sorry, have seen that we crossposted.

Those families on unauthorised encampments, because of the lack of stopping places and transit sites, are denied access to important services. The hardships they suffer are a major factor in contributing to the high maternal death rate amongst Gypsy and Traveller women and high rates of infant mortality. (Several local or regional studies focusing on child and maternal health have demonstrated high infant mortality and perinatal death rates, and high child accident rates (Beach 1999, Feder 1989, Hajioff and Mckee 2000, Linthwaite 1983, Morris and Clements 2001, Pahl and Vaile 1986.) Higher levels of infectious diseases are indicated especially among children (Hennick 1993, Feder 1994, Kearney and Kearney 1999,Thomas et al 1990).

The parenting may not be deliberately poor, but the lifestyle and barriers they face contribute to much, much worse outcomes for there children. So how do we get past this without singling them out....surely we have to, up to a point?

No its not 'nice' to see someone threaten to stab a small child ,but i presume you were talking about the knife they provide you with to eat your meal ,in which case they are so blunt ,even a full on assualt would of only left a red mark ! If the woman had started on you ,you could always threaten to go round in the dead of night and break all her royal crown derby .

Oh and take yourself to appleby horse fair one year to see the hierachy structure in the travelling community ,even travellers have other travellers they look down on .

their children