To want to scream when posters confuse 'hardworking' with successful / well off /professional- because poor people can be hardworking too. And professional people can be under employed.

[BobbingForPeachys]

yes I know i'm averaging one AIBU thread a day ATM, am tired so it is fun. This isn't a paty political rant, it's about usage of phrases by posters and campaigners of all ilks.

Anyway this is a big bugbear of mine

'X do nothing for the hardworking people'

'We will support hardworking famillies' (always picture five year olds cleaning streets with that one!)

'I need my thirty four homes / swan hotel / private jet as a reward for being so hardworking'

blah blah blah

What you mean is you will support the more professionally employed or affluent

Which is fine, society needs all those people to function

But it also needs poorer people to staff nurseries / be HCA's / mop up poo in care homes. The affluent cannot survive without the less well paid, that's a basic fundamental of life under our system.

And that's hard work too, and just as valid. Dh used to manage 60 salaried hours a week when he worked for El Shitty Company years ago, for a fab £18k per annum (normal for area), and moved job when his boss dropped dead at his desk. And I am a hardworking carer in fact. Different existences, no less effort.

Just respect people who comtribute by fulfilling their job or role please.
Regardless of how many GCSE's or ££ it creates for them.
Is all thanks.

"...he's as hard working..."

Oops missed a word out!

"...he's not as hard-working..."

I agree that becomming 'successful' at whatever it is you choose to do requires such a cauldron of skills that to reduce it to 'luck' or 'hard work' is plain daft.

In my business you will need some natural talent, patience, dogged determination, the ability to take endless rejection and critisism, the optimism of Pollyanna ( which precludes the majority of Mumsnet), and the ambition of Lady Macbeth.
Without those you're sunk.

Yes, hard work pays off mostly (not always)
Yes, luck/chance/circumstances are not excuses to do bugger all and then whinge.

But I've seen too many intelligent capable and yes, hard-working people, doing crap dead-end jobs because it never occurred to them that there was an alternative. Jobs that require you to work longhours to get by. For many people them's the breaks. Call it chance if you like. Call it whatever you want but don't call it lack of hard work.

I don't beleive there is a predestined fate for us all. I do beleive that to a certain extent you make your luck but sometimes shit happens. Sometimes it never occurs to you, due to the circumstances of your life, that there is any alternative.

Basically no-one deserves to have a shit life. Or be looked down upon as undeserving because they haven't acheived as much as others. That's all.

I agree Orm and I think you summed it up when you said "shit happens".

jscot Why does it make you angry if people think you are lucky. You are hard working as well. However, you are lucky that you can do what you do. You are lucky that you have not become too ill, and your children are not ill. You are lucky you do not have to stay at home and care for an ill parent. There are lots of reasons why you are lucky. There are lots of unlucky people out there who have worked just as hard.

sorry not not jscot it was minx oops

I consider myself to be lucky. Very lucky. I am not rich, probably below the poverty-line compared to some on here but we do OK. I have basically a good life. But I don't think it's down to the amount of graft I put in - it's down to many things including having a good upbringing, loving parents, enough money as a child to do the things I wanted to do (most of them) and (career-wise) being in the right place at the right time.

MorrisZapp - if my dd is successful in life (whether that be well paid success or badly paid success) I'm sure it will take her a lot of hard work.
But . . . I suspect that if she chooses to follow a path to university / a profession, it will be a lot easier for her than for other children who don't have the same initial 'bump start' of well off parents who have the time, energy and resources to spend on things like reading together, having a microscope in the house that she can play with, helping her to follow up an interest in x y or z by going to a museum, on the internet etc.
That is not to say that she won't have to work hard - just that other children would have to work harder/ be brighter/ be luckier to reach the same starting point.
So, I have a (now very well paid) friend who comes from a family with a hell of a lot of problems. I reckon he worked an awful lot harder to get where he is today than I did!

Well, this bugs me too. My parents had literally nothing when I was a kid (1970's so most people in same boat I guess), but they bought us books from jumble sales, sang to us, engaged with us, took us to museums (free) took us to parks and nature trails (free) and generally gave us 'everything' that money can't buy.

Why does this always come down to money - singing to your kids and taking them to the library is free.

I admit that I spent much of my childhood moaning that I didn't have branded clothing etc but looking back I had a very lucky, loving and interesting childhood.

My sister is now in similar position as a single parent ie skint but a fantastic mum. She's knackered and we'd all love it if she had more money, it's no bed of roses for sure. But her child is receiving all the stuff that money can't buy - love, input, education, conversation etc none of which cost money.

I don't accept that somehow only rich people can give their kids time and effort. My own life shows me otherwise.

morris - I think that makes your DD very lucky. Isn't that true?

Yup, I am lucky and so is my neice. But none of it is money related luck.

I grew up in a house where literally nothing was bought brand new unless my granny had bought it.

If people don't engage with their kids etc then their kids will have impaired life chances. That makes the kid unlucky, but at what point do we expect people to take responsibility and break the cycle of poverty of aspiration?

Anybody having kids in the UK in 2009 is about as lucky as it gets, historically and geographically. Medicine and education are free for children. But they don't bring themselves up, that's up to parents.

Saying it's all about being 'well off' is a total red herring. Most parents manage to do a great job in trying circs without being well off, and we all know that some well off parents are less than perfect.

I just don't like the idea of 'well I wasn't born rich so I haven't been lucky'. Who is born rich - a tiny minority of the population.

'It seems to me that people want to take credit for their own and their family's achievements whilst suggesting that other people's achievements were down to luck. '

I dont think thats true

I'm saying that if you are disbale dthough, or a carer....that'sluck and it can be insurmopuntable

I used to work for a cancer charity, a big one that gives grabts. cancer petients were often struggling really badly becuase of the costs of the disease regarsdless of what they did before they got the DX.

That's what I mean mainly by luck, big life changing events.

I don't think anyone is saying that you can't be a great parent with a low income, or that financial luck is the only sort that matters!

I don't think I made the link between 'luck' and having money. I think there are many ways that you can improve a child's life chances. Being born into a wealthy family is one - but only one.

I just think that some humility is called for sometimes. And the appreciation that good fortune plays a part.

morris - btw I think I had a similar upbringing. Everything was hand-made or second-hand. Mum and dad grew all our veg, mum made all our meals. If we wanted something 'big' like roller skates we waited until Christmas.

But I wouldn't have swapped that for a different life.

Anyway I am nots aying rich people ahrdworking

My OP was about people who use ahrworking as a way of justfying why they have lots and others don't, with the implication taht others are not hardworking.

It is not an exclusivce thing, and some arelucky- some are brighter than others, avoid SN, are born to aprents who are able to interact.

On that levelI am very lucky indeed. I know this and it got me to where I was bvefore the boy's SN

It is DH's sheer graft that has put us in a position where we can cope, through his own business. But he works no harder than I, and yet I make £53 a week CA.

That is in no way saying ahrd work cannot cause success, or the rich do not work- just that not only successful people work hard, and that a great many lives are turned upsdie down by events so significant that what happned pre that event is rendered insignifiacnt.

And of course that everybodies role is significant in society (excusing the shirkers- we do not tralk of them here)- whether you are the high powered exec or the person providing their childcare of caring for their parents.

It atkes everyone to function and without the bottom levels the higher would collapse.

Some people get rich through luck and being in the right place at the right time, others through sheer hard work and determination (not necessarily down to working hard at school though).
Some people work extremely hard all their lives and don't get rich/wealthy, they struggle. This could be down to bad luck, bad choices or simply circumstance.

I think the OP's premise is that there are plenty of people working their knackers off for very little reward, I agree completely.

"My OP was about people who use ahrworking as a way of justfying why they have lots and others don't, with the implication taht others are not hardworking."

I think that a lot of people who say things like "I worked hard for my nice car/big house/foreign holiday" are doing nothing more than telling the truth. They did work hard for it.

To accuse them of implying that other people do not have those things because they don't work hard is reading too much into a simple statement of fact.

For example: My husband works hard so we can afford our house. He works hard so that we can have nice clothes and good food. He works hard and earns enough that I can stay at home without working about whether we're losing income. All of that is simple and true.

By saying that, do I mean that anyone who can't afford those things does not work hard? No. To say that I'm implying that is to read to much into a simple statement.

Whne politicians say "...decent hardworking families..." I do not find it patronising or offensive. I take it to mean those families who take their job (whatever it is) seriously, who avoid criminal or duplicitous behaviour (ie: not claiming things to which they're not entitled) and who try to maintain a stable family life for them and their children - how much they earn is neither here nor there.

It is something I have encountered though- on here and in RL

Iam not saying it always means that but have experienced that

Very well put justabout.

My uncle is a millionaire. He was lucky enough to spot an opportunity and be in the right place at the right time, and to have the talent and knowledge to exploit that opportunity.

My father could have been much better off than he is - and he's not doing badly - but he has Principles. With a capital P. The opportunity that came his way is one that is legal but against his moral code. He turned it down. Lots of his colleagues said 'yes please' and made a lot of money.

I can admire both of them to some extent, but definitely have more respect for my father. (Although am a little aggrieved that he didn't sell out his principles for my inheritance. )

I don't get how people put things down to good and bad luck.

Yes, for a few people, luck plays a part, but it is all very anecdotal. For most people, destiny is fairly predictable.

Studying hard and working hard is definitely going to increase your chances of being successful (you define success). Nothing is guaranteed, however.

The other thing about luck and success is that it tends to be very instant-focussed. It is like the old difference between 'happiness and joy'. Joy accepts that there will be ups and downs and it is the overall that counts. Happiness depends very much on what is happening to you at the time.

I would say that, for ourselves, if you had asked us in 1991 how lucky we were, we would have said not at all. We bought our first house just before the peak of the market in 1989 and the watched prices fall. We were thinking about starting a family and therefore house moves - but in no way in a position to move. We did eventually move (due to rapidly expanding family but had to put the solicitor's fees on a credit card). We also had essential works to make our new house habitable (seriously), that all went on consumer loans. Bottom line, we were in deep doo doo.

Fast forward to 2003 - 2006 - house prices tripled! (slight blip now but should be recoverable within 5 years, and we have no plans on moving). We were now in a position to borrow against our mortgage for house improvements and a dream holiday, and generally feel that we don't need to worry about money too much.

To cut a long story short, you can't look at your current circumstances and extrapolate to the long term.

Hard work is hard work whether it be physically demanding, mentally demanding or both. Whether it pays £ or £££ or ££££££.

Personally I have respect for all who get up, go to work and put in a full days/nights graft no matter what the job, or the pay. Especially those who also have a family and home to run.

Everyone who legally works is contributing to the society we live in, from the grandest to the most humble of jobs. As far as I'm concerned, most people who are gainfully employed are hardworking because it would be easy sometimes to just give up and not get up in a morning and go to work, but we do, over and over and over again. And if we didn't, imagine the streets after a few months if there weren't bin men or sewage treatment workers or street cleaners. Also the taxes from the high earners pay make bigger contributions to the pot so yes they earn more but they have to put more back respectively. It's all different threads of the same fabric

'To cut a long story short, you can't look at your current circumstances and extrapolate to the long term.' very wise

but I feel often tat I am judged not on the fact that we never claimed until MAy, but that we ahve done since then- a snapshot

Neither of us plan it long term

Re luck- what would you define our sitas? disabled kids? 9s that luck or something else? whichever its had a very pervasive effect