To want to scream when posters confuse 'hardworking' with successful / well off /professional- because poor people can be hardworking too. And professional people can be under employed.

[BobbingForPeachys]

yes I know i'm averaging one AIBU thread a day ATM, am tired so it is fun. This isn't a paty political rant, it's about usage of phrases by posters and campaigners of all ilks.

Anyway this is a big bugbear of mine

'X do nothing for the hardworking people'

'We will support hardworking famillies' (always picture five year olds cleaning streets with that one!)

'I need my thirty four homes / swan hotel / private jet as a reward for being so hardworking'

blah blah blah

What you mean is you will support the more professionally employed or affluent

Which is fine, society needs all those people to function

But it also needs poorer people to staff nurseries / be HCA's / mop up poo in care homes. The affluent cannot survive without the less well paid, that's a basic fundamental of life under our system.

And that's hard work too, and just as valid. Dh used to manage 60 salaried hours a week when he worked for El Shitty Company years ago, for a fab £18k per annum (normal for area), and moved job when his boss dropped dead at his desk. And I am a hardworking carer in fact. Different existences, no less effort.

Just respect people who comtribute by fulfilling their job or role please.
Regardless of how many GCSE's or ££ it creates for them.
Is all thanks.

I think people confuse generational luck with the just desserts stemming from their own hard work too. Thinking of my parents' generation, say, who benefitted from lots of free education, cheap housing, full employment, early retirement and generous pensions, but the people I know of that age group do tend to think they worked hard and deserved it. Whereas if you look at young people leaving education now, I do feel sorry for them - big debts, impossible house prices, rubbish pension options and a crummy job market.

I think dp and I had it quite easy being at uni just before tuition fees came in so we had no debts, and being able to buy houses before the prices rocketed. So we do have a biggish house and no debts. Those things weren't due to our hard work though. They were due to luck.

Of course litchick- I have tried to make it clear I don't think bieng wealthy means you didnt wrok hard either.

I ahd a pretty good job pre- boys dx,, manager for a charity, on good wages for area.

Down to working hard despite agin, a rough start.

But that hard work was of no value when bad luck came along (I say abd luck,tis actually genes but YKWIM)

there amny ways to improves ones life chances but if the bad thing happens they are worthless

Litchick - good for you, but there are people who work equally hard who haven't made it so good. Not because they are less worthy than you, but for any number of factors. Just as you've worked hard but have also avoided or been able to cope with shit when it happens - if you'd been unfortunate enough to develop a severe disability that limited your ability to work or even care for yourself, for instance.

That doesn't take away from your hard work, of course. Just means that there are other people who are less successful who may well work just as hard for smaller results.

People who have inherited money KNOW they are lucky, evenif they won't admit it.

People who work hard and are wealthy and judge that people who earn less work less hard than them and/or are stupider than them are the ones that I abhore. As though most people could earn £50k plus per annum if only they would work a bit harder and not shy away from taking responsibility.

I have much respect for the high earners on this thread who have stated that yes they work hard but that opportunities in life are not equally available for each of us, that fortune does not shine equally upon us, that your own genes are a matter of fortune that you can hardly take credit for etc. It makes for an easy conscience if you think you earn a huge salary because you work harder than the poor and are more deserving.

Not entirely sure that's true, Podrick, judging by comments on threads about inheritance tax... people whose parents bought houses that are now worth loadsamoney seem to think it's unfair that they will have to pay tax on their inheritance 'because my parents worked hard all their lives and paid tax'. As if everyone else doesn't! And as if everyone else only gets taxed once...

Isn't it the case that 'rich' people are actually few and far between though, and that most people are just wage drones making enough for a decent lifestyle but with no margins or savings?

I don't like the way this thread is going ie aren't rich people all so horrible. It's no different to saying aren't poor people horrible.

Most adults work hard, whether they are high or low earners, students, parents, carers, whatever. Hardly anybody (that I've ever met anyway) gets to sit on their backside courtesy of a big inheritance.

This is what is meant by 'hardworking families' in my understanding ie a family where there is paid work, unpaid work, and studying etc all going on under one roof. In the political sense, it doesn't refer to how much anybody earns or if they work outside the home. It's people who are doing what they can to provide the best for their kids.

I hate politician-speak as much as anybody but in this case I think OP has got it wrong. 'Hardworking families' doesn't mean rich people. It means people who are doing their best but don't have any margins.

My DP works his backside off in insurance, doing mindbendingly difficult exams alongside full time employment. He doesn't dig ditches, wipe bums or clean toilets, but puts himself out there massively for his employer and his clients. Can we please not go down the road of trying to make anybody who works in an office out to be a pampered toff and anybody who works with their hands to be a noble craftsperson or carer. There is much variety on both sides of that divide.

morris - don't disagree with that. In fact I suppose I don't object to 'hardworking families' so much - I do object to those who are well-off and successful insisting that they got where they are by 'hard work' because that assumes that those who didn't make it, don't work hard. IME not much in life comes without hard work, and sometimes the rewards don't seem to justify the efforts.

MZ I think it measns that soemtimes

BUt other times it is used diferently

It really is

I hope the thread isnt deteriorating into a rich hate fest becuase I did amke it clear I didn't want that .

What I think the phrase actually is, is a cynical attempt to get people to feel its all about them and damn the rest. That is why it applies so generally toeveryone, from the rick to the very poorest on CA etc.

Yeah what Orm sauid

Ilike Orm,she says everything so much better LOL

The phrase "hardworking families" always makes me feel guilty. I'm not sure we're hardworking enough to qualify.

What's the criteria? Does anyone know?

I don't work long hours, but I do work full time. I don't do anything useful - I'm not a teacher or a nurse or a carer - and I don't do anything physical, I just sit on my bum in front of a computer. But I don't get paid megabucks either and 2/3 of my salary goes on childcare. Does that make me a hardworker?

It's a stupid phrase in my opinion. It means nothing.

The rich get rich through hard work and ambition. We work very hard but will never be rich because neither of us has the drive you need to make a success.

I always let my heart rule my head and will do anything to avoid stepping on peoples toes. And you do have to step on toes to work your way up.

But as I said on another thread, where would this country be without your supermarket checkout people, the cleaners, the binmen, the postman, the digger drivers, the teaching assistants etc? These people are the working class and the very core of our society.

Some do Rhubs.

BIL got ricj becuase daddy paid the mortgage and the car loans so they could save an entire salary.

Now as it happens they work hard, but they would have been not been rich otherwise

It's alots of things thrown together mix- drive and ambition are parts, but not all

verytired, I'm working at my pc every day for nowt atm. I'm hoping it'll lead to something but for now I sit here day after day writing and writing and researching etc. It is hard work, it's mentally exhausting.

But lots of people did work extremely hard to get to where they are. My DP (again, sorry) is the only person in his family to go to uni. His mum was supportive but had no resources to offer, financial or intellectual.

He worked his backside off and now he certainly isn't rich but has a decent lifestyle. Through hard work.

Why is saying that in any way insulting to other people? Of course other people work hard, including DP's blue collar parents. Should I say 'God I'm so proud of DP. He's worked so hard to achieve what he has, although of course some poeple work just as hard as he does but earn less or nothing'.

I'm not talking about other people - I'm talking about DP. Who works hard.

Peachy, yes I forgot about them. The ones who have money brought to them. But as they're not classed as hard working we'll ignore them.

Doesn't it depend what you actually do?

I once had a lecture from my db about how hard my sil worked because she had 3 jobs. He went on and on about it. For a nanosecond I thought poor sil but then I added up the hours and realised that I was doing three times as many hours with my one job whilst being a single parent and commuting nearly 4 hours a day .

Haven't read thread, just OP, so I'm sure it's all been said, but Peachy, I agree with you v much.
My dad was both hardworking and successful (self-made etc) but the bottom line is, he was only successful because he was also LUCKY - he was in an industry at the right time then got out of it at the right time, he had had a free education so didn't get landed with a load of debt, then got his first job in academia when it was expanding, etc etc etc. Many many people work as hard or harder and never get half the rewards he did. Success doesn't = moral worth. And the number of people who do worthwile jobs for which they will never do more than scrape by is enormous.

In a past life I once earned £90,000 a year to play on the internet and gamble (known as working in IT) 7 hrs a day.

I did three clients this morning - all with schizophrenia/severe MH distress (UNPAID) - I'm so mentally exhausted I could just lie down.

I know which one I worked harder at (and took more qualifications to do).

Life is neither equitable nor 'fair' - people who think they earn a lot because they work harder are deluded.

I find the notion of 'luck' too fatalistic.
Obviously there are certain factors in life than none of us can control, but for the most part are we not masters of our own destiny?

My Father always taught me that everyone with wealth was 'lucky', had it handed to them and could only achieve what they had through using and abusing the working classes. He said the workers had no choices.
I didn't believe him then and I don't beleive it now.

I agree litchick. We all get good and bad luck at times throughout our lives but mostly, we are in charge of our own choices.

Some people are lucky enough to be born into, say a family of doctors. But last time I looked they weren't handing out medical degrees to doctor's kids. Even where money is a factor ie paying for studies etc, the student has to pass the exams, do the drudge work to get established etc. That is hard.

To turn this on it's head: most posters here have got kids. If and when your own kids are sitting exams, applying for jobs, taking part in sporting or artistic challenges etc, if they do really well will you say it's down to luck? Or will you be absolutely thrilled that your kids hard work has paid off?

It seems to me that people want to take credit for their own and their family's achievements whilst suggesting that other people's achievements were down to luck.

I work extremely hard and always have done but I'm still skint.

I've just taken on a second job on top of my 20k one because at least 2/3rds of my salary goes on my house.

I'm university educated and in my 30s and was told that 20k was the average salary for graduates 10 years ago, which is why I worked my butt off with 2 part time jobs to be able to study, but I've not long reached that salary.

Had I bought a house then instead then I would be paying less than 1/3 of my salary on my house instead like most of my "uneducated" friends who left school, got married and had kids.

Not that I'm bitter... but it just seems bit unfair to those of us that always work hard but everything still seems so far out of reach.

That's exactly what I thought Morris.
I know I bring my kids up to believe that hard work does bring rewards.
DD is currently at county level for sport. She'd like to make it to country level at some point. She knows that only consistent, painful training will bring this reward.
Yes, bad luck mat befall her and she get an injury on the way. But if it doesn't and she gets where she wants to be will that be down solely to 'good luck'. Of course not.

not read all of thread but I see the dfinition of hard working as being people who graft at what ever industry/trade/profession they're in to support themselves and their families at all different levels of society whther it be consultant doctor or care assistant, they're both equally hard working.

The "luck" argument is a tenuous one. Children in care who's parents can't/won't look after them have had a shit load of bad luck from early on and their lives are often blighted as a result, for example.

But this isn't the norm. I hate it when MiL refers to be and dh as "lucky" for having the house we have (3 bed semi, not a mansion!) and going on the far from luxurious holidays we take. We've worked bloody hard for it and made choices with qualifications and work that have enabled us to have this life. We continue to work and graft and better ourselves. Dh in particular came from a background of disadvantage compared to be. He made a decision after some difficult timesd to not live like his parents and to escape his upbringing, and he's done extremely well all down to him, no "luck" involved.

Grrr it's one of my pet hates and sounds petty and mean spirited when people like MiL go all bitter about it.

While I sympathise with the OP, I'm woth others on this thread who say that salary is no indication of how hard you work.

There are plenty of people who work hard, in difficult, stressful environments and earn a pittance and plenty who earn more.

Take, for example, my husband: he's out in Afghanistan and is of field officer rank. He works 17hr days, 7 days a week for six months with a fortnight at home in the middle of the tour. He gets paid more than than the lower-ranking soldiers and officers he works with, and less than those more senior to him. They all work long hours in the same conditions, facing the same risks.

There will be, no doubt, a variation in hours worked/effort applied amongst that group (allowing for the vagaries of human nature) but why should anyone say that just because my husband is further up the rank scale that means - by default - he's as hard working because he makes his money off the back of those beneath him? (And anyone who thinks that Afghanistan and the working environment there is not hard needs to open their eyes!)

Utter crap. Yes, working hard is the key to getting on, but so is natural intelligence/talent, ambition, drive, support, family background, educational choices/opportunites. Basically, there are so many variables that to class it as low paid=hard working, well-paid=backstabbing made-from-others'-sweat is simplistic and naive.