To think that if your child hasnt learned enough in 6 years of school to qualify for a Grammar School then extra tuition is just setting them up to pass an exam ?

[letsgostrawberrypicking]

And then they have to cope with 5 years or so at a school they may find really tough?

I can understand if your local comp is really pants but friends of mine have dds that didnt qualify for GS even though they had intensive tutoring pre test, they then appealed, failed, gave more tutoring, did the 12+ and finally passed it.

Such pressure on the children!

Genuine question - does it really matter that much? I have never seen why a GS is so good, if you child is learning at their own rate isnt that good enough?

YABU - the exams, like most exams, are more about technique and having seen similar questions etc than raw intelligence.

If you have been to a school where you are 'behind' like I was it does not mean you are not bright or unable to cope with the work but you need extra help to catch up with those who have been doing papers at school, interview practise etc etc

Thanks I appreciate all the comments. I know the 2 schools my dc have been to do do verbal reasoning and practice papers deadei, maybe it is just around here? Dont other schools do this - if they dont I can fully understand a couple of sessions to familiarise children with the set out of the papers.

CNyle - what do you think I mean by "tutoring" ? To coach, or give private instruction - what other meaning are you thinking there is?

It just seems a very expensive outlay when if all people want is to familiarise children with the test they can get papers from WHSmith.

I went to GS many moons ago which was crap. Ds goes to one now, which isn't intersted in the average child that he is. He has gone through to Y13 causing no trouble, getting mediocre results, and is totally invisible. Many of the teachers need retraining - they can get away with murder because they are teaching the top 30%, the MAJORITY of whom are from well-off families and many of whom are tutored. It's a ridiculous, elitist system.

That's not to mention the 10% of boys they've ditched as AS because grades weren't good enough. That wouldn't look good on the league tables, would it?

Ugh.

If you live in a selective area,lgsp, then a comprehensive isn't an alternative, which is why people in those areas can go the extra mile to get in to GS. I think children need to be prepared, but in our LEA, the schools cannot tutor for 11+ and the tests are different to what they do in school. Even the maths they learn in primary doesn't cover the 11+ test. So I think children DO need to be prepared, but also think that over-tutoring is not doing the child any favours. A friend had her child tutored all the way through primary and for several hours a week in yr 5, child passed (just) for grammar and parent now complaining about volume/level of homework, which child is struggling to manage. Had to bite my tongue I have to say.

I am seriously thinking of setting me self up as an 11+ tutor. Apart from a CRB check what qualifies anyone to tutor it ? Only finding a parent who is gullible enough to pay !

Inevitably, the entrance test for grammar schools, like any school selection/entrance exam, measures skills acquisition. Tutoring helps ensure that all the skills that are likely to be measured in whatever test a child is going to pass have been taught to the child.

Most children could learn a hell of a lot more a lot younger and faster with very little stress if only they were exposed to the concepts .

(slight name change)

That is pretty much my point in a nutshell lilo - it's the child who has the stress of the homework, yes of course the parents have to deal with the child, but the child has to go to the school everyday and cope.

It seems an even crazier thing now to me if am honest, that the children are to sit an exam that they have only really been taught how to do if the parents can afford tutoring.

Strawberry - I've come to this thread a little late, just wanted to add that I agree with you there's too much pressure on some children to pass the 11+/12+. After this intense tuition to get them through, the dc could have a negative time at grammar school and it even may have the effect of turning them off education due to the stress of trying to keep up.

We don't have grammar schools in our area, it's a relief my dc won't have to sit the 11+. I failed mine, but still went to university!

It's a tough one: grammar really right for DS and I suspect he wouldn't have done as well in a comp. DD didn't pass for grammar, she'd have been better off at a comp but the two don't co-exist here.

I passed my 12+ (much to the surprise of my parents and to the great upset of DB who had failed his a couple of years earlier). DB however was in the top set at his Comp whereas I was somewhere in the middle (certainly for Maths and English). He's now a university lecturer.

The parents of my best friend at the time decided that whether she passed her 12+ or not that she was going to go to the local comp as they thought she wouldn't cope with the GS. Which thinking back was a very interesting and possibly brave decision.

Do perhaps Grammar schools perhaps prefer children who have been tutored because it shows that they are the ones who have parents determined for them to succeed - ie will make sure they do their homework, behave etc. And will probably also cough up for school funds etc.

As opposed to the super-bright child of parents who might have gone to a comp themselves, been left hating school, teachers and authority figures in general and who would never employ a tutor for their kids in a million years.

"I have never seen why a GS is so good."

Think of it perhaps as a specialist school focussing on academics in a way that some schools/colleges are specialist sporting centres - my DD was not sporting, not artistic, hopeless at drama but she did thrive very well in a GS where high academic ability and standards were expected and nurtured (no tutoring for DD, I expected her to get through without it and she did.)

My godson ended up going to the same GS (ranked highly in the country) and he had a year and a half of tutoring beforehand as his mum, my BF, didn't think his primary had given him a good enough grounding - she thought he was bright enough to cope with a GS given the right opportunities to win a place. Now I must admit I wasn't sure this was a great plan in case he ended up struggling near the bottom of the school, but I couldn't have been more wrong - he thrived there, too and didn't struggle at all.

Of course maybe he would have got in without any tutoring at all, if the tests are so clever they can pick out an able child on potential rather than simply a knowledgeable/well-drilled one - but I'm honestly not sure they are totally unbiased. One of the VR questions, for example, involved ranking 5 different paper products in order of size - and rather more than logic skills, this required a good vocabulary ('pamphlet', fgs!) - hard to see how a very clever child not exposed to many books, or with Eng not the first language, would have done well on that (the non-VR paper I imagine is a better test of actual 'intelligence'.

So I'm on the fence about this one, but I'm sure that for academic children a good GS can be the best place - the knock-on effect on the other schools having a GS in the area is another question entirely as this somewhat prevents them from being true comprehensives - though it has to be said in this area (Glos) we have some excellent comps as well as three grammars.

Thanks for all the responses, it is always really interesting to hear other POVs.

We went and looked around 2 of the 3 grammar schools we have to choose from, very lucky I know but they varied in quality too.
DD has her heart set on one of them, there was one I wouldn't entertain and one is a bit too far but we'd take if we had to.

TBH I walked in and walked out of the comps, 50% pass rate simply isn't good enough i'm afraid.

The problem with the 11+ round here is that it doesn't examine subjects that are properly taught at state primaries. The maths examined is beyond what the NC requires to be taught to children at that point. VR and NVR are under great time pressure and if you haven't practised the questions types you don't have a hope in hell. Most tutoring is IME just going through the example papers.

We don't have grammar schools in our area but when we did there were secondary moderns as well.

Do secondary moderns still exist or are the non grammars just called comprehensives?

Anywhere that as the 11+ can't have comps as well they.

sorry should read ..can't have comps as well can they.

You can have comps as well in some areas - we do.

But they can't be proper comps if the top 25% or maybe more are creamed of into grammars can they.

Ours is a rural area so we don't have the choice of schools others have but they are true comprehensives. Lots of very bright children go there and I'm sure the top 25% would rival any grammar. No wonder comps as a whole get a bad name if some of them are really secondary mods.

Only one grammar school outside town. It is not a proper comp anyway as there are so many private schools here so no such thing really is there. Our comp has 30% pass rate.

Well hear very few go private. Even doctors, dentists, business men use the comp. Still I suppose if 7% nationally go private and in some areas it's nearer 50% areas like ours just even things out. Very good comps do exist in many ares but you would think so from reading MN!

Sorry about spelling!

I would argue that ours is excellent even though the pass rate is low. The value added is amazing. There is more to a good school than passing GCSEs it is a very inclusive school. They have a lot of SN kids, three times the national average. About 20% go to private here.

The comprehensive system as been fantastic for all mine. 3DS are dyslexic so wouldn't have got into a grammar. The other 3 are very academically able and it's never held them back.......sorry for tread hijack!

Too many on MN do comps down!

OP, the chances are that your friend's dc will struggle at Grammar. At ds's school, about 10 or so have just joined having passed the 13 plus. Two of them are in his form and were in the top sets for everything at the comp but after testing are in the bottom set at the grammar and need a lot of extra support.

What does that do for a dc's self esteem, to go from being considered v bright to then essentially marked as one in need of remedial work?