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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Re- Benefits..please read..!!

196 replies

bichonbuzz · 20/08/2009 23:21

Have just watched Benefits Busters prog where women on benefits are supported to try to return to work.One of the women gets £240 pw- has 4 chldren - which coincidentally is my wage - and she stated that she wanted to return to work but felt that benefits are too high and actually discorage some people to work.She was offered a job during her course but calculated that to take this job it would mean that she would be £50 pw WORSE OFF- i just feel that the gov should have let her work and contribute something for the benefits she would continue to get - it would be a win win situation as she felt it wd help her self esteem to work (appriciate some people could nt do this due to circumstances )- She seemed upset and motivated to work and it would have been one less person on benefits - AIBU to wish that she could have been supported to do this whilst keeping her benefits ....

OP posts:
violethill · 24/08/2009 09:46

I don't think anyone has said it's ok for MPs to fiddle expenses. Or to not pursue people who cheat the system on a large scale.

So, it's a cheap shot to try that one.

Anyone who cheats the system should be taken to task - big scale or small.

However, this thread is not really about benefit cheats. It's about people who are acting entirely within the letter of the law, but it's the law which is an ass. (Which incidentally, was the case with many of the MPs. Not all of them - some of them acted unlawfully. But many of them were technically within the law, its just that their actions were widely seen as immoral).

Parallel situation here. People can claim benefits to which they are technically entitled because the legislation is so flawed. For instance, I have known people on JSA who could work but choose not to. They are able to get away with 'proving ' that they are looking for a job by cutting out a few adverts from the paper and showing a draft letter of application when they sign on. It's pathetic.

The system needs a complete overhaul, and the bottom line, as many people have pointed out on here, is that work needs to pay significantly more than benefits.

I am also in total agreement about the chasing absent parents issues. That's one of the key issues. It takes two people to make a baby, and responsibility for that child remains until she/he is 18. It's a huge one to tackle, but it's one of the fundamental things which is wrong in society - that people have been allowed to think they can have a child and pass responsibility to the state. DH and I have 3 kids, we have always taken financial responsibility, nursery fees, clothes, food, etc. If we split up tomorrow, why should DH's share of that responsibility pass to the state (ie other working adults!)He would still be the same person, still capable of working, and still a father to our kids. Parents split from each other, not their children.

expatinscotland · 24/08/2009 11:05

'So, it's a cheap shot to try that one.'

Maybe according to you, VH.

I find it a perfectly valid one since a lot of these scammers are the ones making decisions about how welfare is handled.

And, well, there will need to compromise and agree to disagree, a lost art for some (cough).

As you were. Because you're not interested in debating, you're interested in getting personal and nasty and insisting you are right and everyone else is wrong.

It's tiresome.

IUsedToBePeachy · 24/08/2009 11:52

But if work pays significantly more than benefits the system will shoot itself in the arse with housing; landlords will want the rents workers can pay and many people will be forced into the LA system- right now a great many rent privately. There is,admittedly through the neglect of successive Governments, not enough housing to go around; that will negatively impact on the 'deserving' claimants, both those like myself or the bulk of the recently redundant JSA keeps me going until I can find work crowd.

It will alsopenalise claimants who most people would agree need support- most of those famillies do claim some JSA / IS etc becuase things like CA and IB are so paltry in com-arison to actual need (CA is £53.10 a week) and I cannot see that it is right to make those people suffer. I'm a lucky one; eventually I will be back at work and hopefully by then i will have an MA and be very well qualified in an area of expanding need. Many long term claimants cannot look to such a positive outcome.

There is also another aspect: povrty takes on many forms, and in many famillies passes down through the generations. Why?Poverty of hope,poverty of opportunity, poverty of self esteem- all things compounded by being devalued by society.

I am a great believer in over hauling the system, but in a positive rather than negative fashion. Make a (small) top up avilable to those who volunteer (much of which can be done from homes so compatible with kids) for a registered charity (bringing self esteem, contacts, experience). Competely review funding for FE (at the moment mature students receive very little apart from a letter stating 'sorry you are not available for work'- yet isn't a qualification as a TA, childcarer or plumber as valuable as a degree for the right person?). Give people the means to change their lives and you'd be surprised how many do: even if its just a free college nursery palce with no loss of IS. When I did my Access DH was earning minimum wage, and I was saving the CB to cover the few hours childcare we couldn't juggle with his shifts, bloody nightmare of a time that almost cost us our marriage from the stress.

And the otehr thing we need is a long term focus. For those whose asses we cannot sshift, focus on their children: cahnge waht you can. The University here ran a mentor scheme into the valleys (until- guess what- funding was pulled) and it made changes in peoples lives. Sometimes you grow up thinking there's no chances- then somebody says but hang on, you're great at so even if your GCSE's aren'tt hat great, what about a more direct route such as BTEC first / ND / HND....I remember doing that for a girl with SPLD and you could see the world opening in her eyes. She got the palces, too.

Punitive measures won't work, we'll punish the wrong people (dependancts) and exaccerbate the problems long term. You have to deal with the causes.

bearing in mind as well that other great effect of poverty and increased lack of cash redicted by many in the recession: an increase in crime rates. better to motivate people (mostly in rather cost effective ways) than to write off the next generation, push people towards crime and have to fund both the remefdies and the prisons.

violethill · 24/08/2009 17:26

expat - it doesn't get much more personal than having a cheap shot at a poster who couldn't spell 'benefits' correctly.

But maybe you think dyslexia and other special needs are fair game

violethill · 24/08/2009 17:48

Peachy - I agree with your post - I think a lot needs to be done from a postive perspective, but maybe it's a bit of both - carrot and stick. The minority of people who don't want to get off their asses aren't necessarily going to be motivated by positives, but will respond if they're hit where it hurts ie their pocket.

And yes - focus on the up and coming generation because after all, they're the ones who have their life ahead of them.

Totally agree about the need for more social housing too.

I think a whole raft of positive approaches are needed, some punitive measures for the die-hards who think it's ok to not work, or ok to father kids and let other people pay for them, and above all, yes, benefits should be there for the reason the welfare system was implemented ie to provide a safety net for the genuinely needy, but not for people who just don't want to shoulder responsibility.

expatinscotland · 24/08/2009 17:53

she only said she had dyslexia later on, VH.

but you know, i'd given you a swerve way down in this thread, saying agree to disagree and then not addressing you anymore.

but you continue to do so.

so here's another right back.

by all means keep addressing me personally.

i will completely ignore you and your posts from this point on. goodbye.

shaninemb · 24/08/2009 18:14

I don't recall sayings single parents on benifits were bad, had a quick look throgh and couldn't see that I said it either. I was talking about all claiments who don't need to but choose to. The people who feel they are to good for minimum wage. I don't know you or your circumstances, but you seem to be a frustrated know it all to be honest. Not being able to spell doesn't affect your intellagence (does that mistake bother you). Maybe you could look up dyslexia and add that to the list of things you know about but do nothing with. I know alot of things to, maybe not the things you do but I don't feel the need to belittle people to make myself feel good

shaninemb · 24/08/2009 18:22

I am litrally surounded by people who who think its pointless to work if they are only going to be 20 a week better off.
Fir the record I was relived when I had the dyslexia "lable" it was better than the thick lazy and useless one.

shaninemb · 24/08/2009 18:23

my keyboard is not working properly either its not just my bad spelling, I am alot better than I used to be

expatinscotland · 24/08/2009 18:26

I don't need to look up dyslexia, my husband has it. And dysgraphia, dyscalculia and dyspraxia, too. DD1 also has dysgraphia, well, that's the only diagnosis at present, but she's already reversing her letters and putting them upside down and has long had hand/coordination issues.

You didn't mention you had dyslexia until later on in the thread.

And since you got personal and said I seemed frustrated, well, by the same token, I feel that you over-simplify things and refuse to take on board any other point of view but your own.

Maybe you need to get off-topic and lable people when they disagree with you to make yourself feel better yourself.

I don't know.

And honestly, unfortunately, like most topics on here, it all eventually takes a downward spiral.

Whoever linked the Guardian article, thanks! The comments on it were absolute genius and well-reasoned, all 400+ of them.

expatinscotland · 24/08/2009 18:29

Oh, and thanks, Peachy! I totally agree.

On to next Thursday's episode, where the focus will be the long-term unemployed.

violethill · 24/08/2009 18:31

So it's fair game to criticise someone's spelling until you realise they are dyslexic...

Sheesh, what an enlightened attitude towards SEN.

shaninemb · 24/08/2009 18:38

Still you got personal first, I held off for alot of personal posts by you. and for the last time, the discussion is about the can't be bothereds, NOT the can't get work even though they try, the people who look after their young children, or their older children with additional needs or care for family members. But I guess as with every one of my posts (not including the last one) you'll read something into that I haven't written.
Oh and speaking from expirience, try to focus on your daughters good points and use these to work on the things she needs help with. It really doesn't matter if she can't write to well, by the time she gets to uni (if she has the confidnece to go) everything is done on the pc, she will get all the help she needs and will no doubt go on to be amazing at what she does.

shaninemb · 24/08/2009 18:43

I had no problem with most of the people on the program last week. I think it will be this weeks show that annoys me (think I might put my messages on word 1st lol)

violethill · 24/08/2009 18:43

shaninemb - your posts have been very reasoned and not unpleasant at all - really don't know what's going on here, but I agree, that personal comment about your spelling was nasty. I teach many young people with dylexia and you're absolutely right, now that most communication is via a pc, the disability doesn't have such a negative impact as in previous years.
BTW, when she was very little my dd1 had a CM who was dyslexic - it certainly didn't affect her ability to do the job superbly - she was a fantastic CM and my dd loved her.

expatinscotland · 24/08/2009 18:52

'and nobody goes after absent exs who can make many lone parents.'

Exactly, turquoise.

And, as in Nutty's case, some of the ex's go onto JSA and deliberately stay long-term unemployed to avoid paying much if any maintenance.

Perhaps the next episode of this series will address people like this.

shaninemb · 24/08/2009 18:54

thanks Vilolehill, I have no idea what I have said to offend expatinscotland either. It really felt as though I was back at school for a while there though. I need to toughen up. It's been a while since someone felt it was ok to put me down beause of my spelling. My hubby used to do it when he couldn't change my mind and make me agree with his opinion. I eventually put a stop to it through joint councelling. (hes a know it all too actually,mind you I can be too but I don't feel the need to goad people)I wouldn't stand for it now though, it just came as a bit of a shock last night, felt a bit bombarded I didn't realise thats what these forums were about. I know now though. some peeple just have to argue about everything, maybe this is an outlet for people like that

shaninemb · 24/08/2009 18:56

should get hubby on here in a few weeks, after I change my name lol

shaninemb · 24/08/2009 18:58

No doubt there has already been a discussion about MPs that I missed, set one up again. I agree it was ridiculous, I mean A MOAT

expatinscotland · 24/08/2009 18:58

'But if work pays significantly more than benefits the system will shoot itself in the arse with housing; landlords will want the rents workers can pay and many people will be forced into the LA system- right now a great many rent privately. There is,admittedly through the neglect of successive Governments, not enough housing to go around; that will negatively impact on the 'deserving' claimants, both those like myself or the bulk of the recently redundant JSA keeps me going until I can find work crowd.'

That's certainly an interesting angle.

But don't you feel that's already an issue, given that many landlords already state: no DSS, forcing those who need it even partially onto LA lists?

The cost of housing is behind a lot of ills, particularly as pointed out by that article that much low-skilled or unskilled work doesn't have a set rota or number of hours/week, causing havoc with the worker's housing benefit.

shaninemb · 24/08/2009 19:01

just because people dont agree with your opinion doesn't mean they haven't listened

shaninemb · 24/08/2009 19:02

OR UNDERSTOOD

shaninemb · 24/08/2009 19:03

I think I said something about the cost of housing

shaninemb · 24/08/2009 19:12

We need to stop people having second homes they rarely stay in. I would love to live in a nice rural area (maybe not at the moment with the job market) but never could as the prices are stupid. (I don't feel the need to use jargon to put my point across)People dont even have working towards getting a house as an insentive to work anymore

shaninemb · 24/08/2009 19:17

so what would you call low skilled or unskilled.

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