Apparently the world is too 'female'.....

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DH was voicing his view last night that 'masculinity' is being wiped out and that men can no longer do the things that make them men any more because they are frowned upon and that in a few years there will be a need for a 'masculinist' movement because the world is becoming so 'female'. He inferred that these manly things include shagging and fighting without consequence.

I was trying to make the point that in a world where equality is still a million miles away this kind of whingeing is pathetic and that men were only able to do these things in the past (largely) at the expense of women. I actually had to leave the room in the end because of a strong desire to lamp him.

I think his attitude sucks and his view of the world completely deranged. These views don't really seem to be in sync with the intelligent, thoughtful man I thought I had married. AIBU, is this just a typical male view? If I'm not, how can I put him right back in his box?!

BlehdyDM,

Yes it is my perspective and based on anecdotal evidence.

On the other hand, real scientific evidence is notoriously hard to find. How does one adjust for self selection? There are so many confounding factors. In addition, obviously 20 years ago there was gender bias. This historical gender bias does not mean that it is still present, but will still be seen in employment statistics of anyone over about 40-45 (the boardroom so often quoted).

In education in the UK, girls do better than boys at every level. This is not in any sense in dispute. There are only 2 explanations for this: real ability and gender bias. Is anyone seriously suggesting that girls are brighter/better students than boys?! If so, that is a reversal of the crude male discrimination of the days before women's emancipation.

"Of course, you can choose to believe that this "choice" is due to societal pressure and gender bias during childhood. I believe women are adults and make choices and are not merely the "product" of society. I am always amazed how willing feminists are to infantilise other women when it suits their argument"

I think you're underestimating societal pressure and cultural norms. Also, you seem to be conveniently ignoring developing countries - surely the women there are able to make their own choices too? How about, for example, refuse to have sex with their husband who beats them? Oh wait, no they can't because it's the law.

It's this kind of cultural norm that has brain washed men like you into believing that the priviliges you are allowed are somehow deserved over womens.

"By definition, 50% of women on mumsnet must have sons. Surely some of you must start to wonder what type of world your (ever so twee) "DS"s will be growing up into?"

I would like both my sons to grow up in a world where their partners and daughters can reach their full potential. Not one that is based on a sense of male entitlement.

MsRisotto,

I refer you to my first post. I said it applied to the middle classes (or ABC1 in marketing speak) in developed nations ONLY.

Trying to bring the truly discriminated-against women of the third world into an argument about the UK middle classes merely means you do not have a real point to make. If you want to help Afghani women, contribute some money to help their very real cause. Do not use them to bolster a weak argument against the feminisation of UK society.

LG -

What influences said choice? Do women therefore care more about their offspring compared to the fathers?

What influences the majority of men to remain at work rather than give up their highly paid careers to raise their children? Because society demands it falls to the mothers? You only have to see the arguements on sahm vs wohm threads to see the dilemma faced by many.

As for the no regrets are you sure - or is this simply because mums are not allowed to express their regrets for fear of being seen as a bad mother?

Whatever a mother does it is wrong! I have yet to see the same crticism flung at dads - some who love to complain about the lack of support they receive during the transition to parenting. Well dads over to you - become midwives and healthvisitors - take an interest in fathersdirect and support each other rather than forcing this responsibility on to women to resolve it for you.

I agree that balance is required so if you believe it's now tipped the other way stop moaning and be proactive - you have been found wanting.

Missrisotto - larrygrylls has already said that he is talking about the first world.

"To reiterate, the whole post above applies to the first world middle classes (95% of Mumsnet) and not to CDE or the third world, which I will freely admit, still suffers from pro-male bias. "

I think he makes some good points.
I had a career. At the point that I left to care for the children, dh and I were more or less doing the same job in I.T. for the same pay. I preferred to stay home with the children and he preferred to continue working out of the home. So that's what we did. No regrets, so far.

I had a career. At the point that I left to care for the children, dh and I were more or less doing the same job in I.T. for the same pay. I preferred to stay home with the children and he preferred to continue working out of the home. So that's what we did. No regrets, so far.

Sorry for joining late but I need to say What exactly is wrong with being female anyway?
I hate the derogatory use of 'woman' and female as being an insult.

Lindenavery,

You make some fair points.

Although I will be truly flamed for this; pregnancy, childbirth and hormones probably do at least initially help women bond with tiny babies better than men. This does of course equalise over time.

What influences gender-neutrally brought up boys to fight and gender-neutrally brought up girls to co-operate? I am not saying either are better, just that differences should be acknowledged.

The main regrets I actually hear from SAHM is actually how they are perceived by society (and their resentments are the strongest towards judgmental working mothers). Why is bringing up one's own children considered less worthy than trooping to an office to push paper around and play politics? I have been at home for the last year and regard spending time with my baby son as one of the best uses of my brain and time.

I think men are actually nervous to become involved for fear of being seen as unmanly, in the same way I imagine as the first suffragettes were perceived as unfeminine by the majority of their peers. However, it will happen, it will just take time

So, if the UK is turning into a feminised country, on what basis would you say this?

• That women have more opportunities than men
• that women get better education than men
• that women are better paid
• that the law, in all areas is biased towards women
• that women dominate various employment fields
• that women are treated with more respect than men
• that women have, culturally, more influence than men
• that women, politically have more influence than men

If you break it down, there's very few that I would say women do dominate in. Very few. As for the women having no regrets, I agree with the previous poster who said that very few, if any, would vocalise this. My great aunt once said that she wished she'd never had children, but was expected to, so did. You should have seen the looks she got.

LG

• I will not flame you for comment as there is plenty of research to back up what you say, however there IS a general lack of research on fathers although some organisations are starting to address said balance with regards to the role evolving. From experience many fathers in their 60s have regrets about not being the father that their own sons have become.

I do agree that SAHM fear how they are perceived but so do WOHM with judgements coming from all sides.

BlehdyDM,

1/ Define "opportunities". V vague

2/ Maybe yes, certainly yes if you define it by results.

3/No, not yet. However we have already discussed the self-selection argument inconclusively.

4/ Not in all areas, but in many. Divorce and child custody are two of them. Saying the family courts are "pro children" is disingenuous when it is assumed (ceteris paribus) by them that women make better parents.

5/ Well, they do dominate some. More are still dominated by men.

6/ Depends by whom. Very vague!

7/ V arguable. Media is female dominated so personally I would say yes. However, it is debatable.

8/ No, not yet, but with the likes of Harriet Harman around, would you really want it to be?! (do not take too seriously).

I really cannot argue your final point other than anecdotally but nor can you or anyone else here.

BlehdyDM - i have friends who have chosen to be childless. Others who decided to have an only child. Granted they seem to be a minority. As regards the looks your great aunt got I'm sure a man would have received the same if he was effectively saying that he wished his children hadn't been born.

1. Okay, job opportunities, career progression opportunities
2. Well, it depends on how you look at it. More men get 1st class degrees than women: does this mean they get a better education?
3. I'm sure you can find many people who disagree with you. Many women who take lower paid jobs do so because they have to work around school hours etc., or else they cannot go into better paid professions. Even if they do, a recent study found that there earning potential drops by 5% for every year that they are at home caring for their children
4. That is only one minor area of law. What about employment, criminal law (someone on the thread earlier stated that women get harsher sentences for equivalent crimes), the rubbish conviction rate for sex offences. With regards to family law, they are trying to redress a major imbalance. Previously (I cannot recall the name of the case), a woman who had quite her job and raised her partners children for 25 odd years, looked after the house etc. was not granted her portion of the house, because previously the courts only looked at financial contributions. There are numerous cases, to even the 1990s, where this is the case. It is only in the last decade that any change has come about. Marital rape was only outlawed in this country in 1992.
5. Agreed
6. Okay, by the opposite sex.
7. Which aspect of the media? Film-making is dominated by male filmmakers, producers and actors, the music business is dominated by men (artists, managers, record label owners, music retail, such as buyers etc.), the visual arts are dominated by men ... so, advertising?

I have sons, and I have felt that there is an anti male bais in todays society (western developed middle class) where male traits are devalued and ridiculed (as on this thread) and where female traits (as generalisations I apprecite) are more highly valued (communication, empathy, negaitiation etc).

Yes there are still many areas where women are discrminated against, mainly in terms of careers and family life which shouldn't be dismissed.

BUT the biggest risk factor in nearly all areas is being born male:

more at risk of SEN at school.
more at risk of exclusion.
more at risk of underacheiebing in education.
more at risk of suicide.
more at risk of mental halth problems.
more at risk of social isolation.
more at risk of going to prison.
more at risk of violent assault.
more at risk of poor family relationships.
more at risk of loosing children.

Yes they are more likely to be a politician and to earn more but there is much more than just that going on for men in our society, and I find it very depressing that the responses on this theard have been to mainly dimiss and ridicule that.

Those of us with sons, our sons are already experiencing the female leaning education system and suffering from this. This is recognised big time in current eductaion research but not yet been implemented sufficiently in mainstream education.

Surely we want equal opportunities for our daughters and recognition of the subtle undermining of our sons?

All the male bashing on this thread is very depressing.

larrygrylls - I am assuming you are a man and welcome to MN.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying and followed much the same career as you by the sound of things. I especially agree with these two points:

1. "Surely some of you must start to wonder what type of world your (ever so twee) "DS"s will be growing up into? "

It is one of my main concerns and one I am glad as a SAHD to take a big part in helping y DSs grow up as decent men who are ready for that future world.

1. " I have been at home for the last year and regard spending time with my baby son as one of the best uses of my brain and time.

I think men are actually nervous to become involved for fear of being seen as unmanly"

Yes I have had it said to my face 'that it was not a mans job to look after children' when I announced I was becomimg a SAHD.

Immediately everyone started looking at me differenty - just like SAHMs say people do. A big shock. I genuinely think men cannot take a full part in being modern fathers and bringing their unique 'male' parenting contribution until society (and I am sad to say that includes some women) also accepts it as a valid male role.

All that said, I do not think we have an over feminised society - just men finding theselves crushed between rapidly changing expectations, commercial economic pressures and the seeming inability of society to actualy allow them and help them to make that transition. Really just the same problem in reverse that women suffered when they demanded to be allowed to choose careers and be fairly paid and not just be mothers and wives.

My point is that the developing countries are a more extreme example of what is happening here. Are you not inside my head then

Good post ABetadad.

MRS B

I wonder how many of the points you have listed are due to absent fathers? I have seen some research that suggests a positive male role model influences emotional and psychological wellbeing and therefore has an impact on such outcomes?

Maybe a good reason to reflect on those manly pursuits of 'shagging and fighting'.

Interesting to consider for those of us with sons and daughters the difference/influences in parenting.

Linden I think all those risk factors would be increased for boys without fathers, but are in fact just general risk factors for being male.

LindenAvery - on the absent father issue the point you make I solidy agree with. I am going to say something that I said to a woman at the weekend which she agreed with and I hope it is not too controversial here.

It relates to the 'shagging and fighting issue'. I strongly believe that a dominant but loving male figure in a family is very important. I think it especially important with boys. Let me emphasise I have no time at all for men who hit or use any kind of physical force on anyone or threaten to use it on anyone. However, a dominant male who steps in to prevent boys abusing or disrespecting the mother and other siblngs, sets clear boundaries and who when necessary dominates an unruly son by voice, physical body language and challenging his behaviour is crucial in developing boys' to respect others.

I also think a dominant but loving male figure is important for young girls to help them understand what they should look for in their future male partner and what to instill in their sons. Women of course make equaly vaild contribtions in a different way to a family but if the male is absent or simply not taking an active role then I see too often both boys and girls suffering.

For example, on the very rare occassion my DS1 hits his younger brother I remind him that I have never hit him and never will but if I did it would hurt a lot and that he should think what it feels like to be hit by a bigger stronger person. The message is well taken by DS1 not out of fear but out of respect and because he knows I love him and will never hurt him. I see far too many boys using violenece to get what they want - even in well of middle class families.

ABetaDad - how old are your sons? What would you do if an older son (14ish) stood his ground and challenged you?

Larrygrylls - do you work in the media? Is where you work really female-dominated?

I work for a women's magazine, for a company that publishes some of the UK's top-selling women's mags. On a basic level we are definitely female-dominated. Most of the editorial staff are women (although actually, my team has five men and four women), lots of the ad teams, most of HR etc etc.

BUT, our chief exec and all the board - every single one of the big cheeses - are men. And they're the ones who make all the decisions.

juule - an interesting point and one I have thought about. My DSs are 9 and 7. What I hope and want by the time my DSs are 14 is fo rthem to challenge me intellectually, challenge me about my beliefs, etc, but never to think that lifting their fists is the way to deal with a disagreement. If they do, I will have failed.

Hopefully, it will work that way for you, ABetaDad.

Why does the man have to be dominant ABetaDad? I totally take your point about a loving male figure, but I just don't understand why they have to be dominant. Surely this implies that women should be subservient?