To think that playgroups/toddler groups shouldn't be churchy even if they are held in a church hall?

[ClaraDeLaNoche]

Right time for sweeping statements. When I lived in the city, the playgroups I went to were in church halls but there was never any pressure to join the church, or talk about religion. It was just a place to drink coffee while the kids played. But out in the sticks, the local church owns all the mums groups and they talk about beliefs and stuff. The play group leaders also tell holy stories.

Am working at home today and I can hear them all yahooing in the church hall. I have no doubt that they are having great fun and the kids love it.

However I don't want my kids to go because I don't like having this stuff shoved down my throat.

AIBU to want to use their toys and tea but not their opinions? I would add that it is not my religion, but I do have respect for churches that do stuff for the community, especially as "my" church (I say "my" but I hardly ever go) does nothing for the community.

But God doesn't exist in my opinion. I am loving you by telling you the truth.

LOL no, they are not loving you more than anyone has ever loved you before

what an arrogant, bizarre and sadly typical remark

Non-Christians love too, you know. Just as meaningfully. And the "values" being cited earlier are't Christian values, they are common sense decent human values.

Of course atheists don't have the sole franchise on caring about young families either - but when they do run toddler groups/give up their time for the community, they are doing it for honest straightforward motives - to provide a service needed by local people, because it's a worthwhile thing to do. There isn't another agenda which amounts to pushing your own beliefs onto young vulnerable people while you have them as a captive audience.

And I am very much of the "some people believe XXX" school when it comes to my children. They are learning about all the lajor belief systems. Christians however rarely tell people "some people, including me, believe XXX" - their position tends to be "This is The Truth"

which is wrong, especially when you are peddling it to children under the cover of a toddler group

Aw - MrsMattie we were doing so well without people throwing in the comments...

Clara thanks it is nice to know that people appreciate the commitment we make to turning up each week. To the best of my knowledge a few people have come along to church but none have had their lives transformed by knowing God personally. In 10 years. Read into that what you will... but we still keep running the group cos people still want it.

I don't require anyone to be seen and not heard - but I also baulk at the idea that I need the love you outline questioneverything.

Also, maybe I have just been lucky, but I have never come across a Christian who would say such a thing to me in real life. They respect my views, I respect theirs. Those at the toddler group are evangelising as is their calling, but they are not proselytising

nonetheless toddler groups are just part of the church's marketing strategy - disingenuous to imply otherwise IMO.

I think questioneverything has a rather warped idea of what constitutes 'love'. If 'love' means imposing your version of The Truth upon unwilling strangers, it's not the sort of 'love' I recognise or want, for myself or my children. I've seen enough cow-eyed noble sorrow in the faces of politely rejected Christians to last me a lifetime.

I think in some cases it is wider than simply marketing (though I accept that it is also that). From my observations many women who are active in the Church are also SAHMs. Some have told me that they run the playgroups to give them a position in the community, and the chance to meet other local mums.

Surely it boils down to - if you like the group go, if you don't don't. My experience shows that it is not incompatible to be both agnostic and a fan of Church playgroups

quite clemette - the church has always exploited the time, energy and need for a sense of belonging of various groups of people - lonely people, SAHMs etc

they're very good at marketing and propaganda, it's formed the bulk of their activities (well, the legal ones) for centuries

But I don't share your view that their marketing and propaganda is something to be suspicious of. People have free will, and I have only ever met respectful, committed and kind Christians.
Still don't share their faith though...

No, I realise you don't share my view! but I was responding to your point about SAHMs volunteering in church community ventures and what they get in return.

I have met many disrespectful Christians - not unkind, or abusive, but deeply disrespectful. I suppose people find different things disrespectful.

I personally find that the automatic and total dismissal of any other belief system which forms one of the most basic tenets of Christianity to be not only disrespectful but offensive and dangerous.

I really don't see a problem-if you don't like the way a group is run, or the ideas behind it, or the people running it-don't go.

Greensleeves et al, it is crazy to think Mother and baby groups have any other agenda apart from creating a Mother and baby group.

Speaking from personal experience of starting a group in my Catholic church, we just started the group as the hall was empty most of the time and it seemed like a smart thing to do. Certainly there was no agenda!! Most people don't have time to think of these paranoid conspiracies.
Come along to a mother and toddler group. Meet other parents. End of story.

If your child hears the word 'God' take it as an opportunity to educate your child about the different beliefs and cultures of the world. Where is the bad in that?

I'm with Greensleeves on this one.

Also, if there is no agenda why link it with the church in the first place.

cat64 I certainly DO believe in public-spirited, community-minded people who do voluntary work for no ulterior motive - I like to think I am one I and lots of people I know run groups, do voluntary work with young people and the elderly etc - because it's a worthwhile thing to do, not for any other agenda.

however the church is a different phenomenon entirely - it appropriates and uses the services of these people in order to raise its own profile and get people through the doors.

Sometimes it can be more effective to take the subtle approach to marketing - the Christian establishment has spent centuries perfecting a wide array of means of endearing itself to non-believers and waverers. The approach of providing a much-needed service, a friendly face, cups of coffee and then just a pinch of non-pushy proselytising is no less agenda-based than hard-core evangelism on street corners. And it targets the lonely and the very young. Typical.

And as for the potential effect of my children hearing the word "God" - my children have heard it many times as part of their education, they know what the basic beliefs of Christians are and those of other major faiths/philosophies. However the day a Christian running a church group mentions God in a neutral context, acknowledging that his existence is up for debate and that the Christian world view is opinion, not fact - then I'll be very surprised indeed

also highly typical is the immediate typecasting of any dissenter against Christian influences and activities - because I am not naive enough to see church community ventures as other than marketing strategies, I am "cynical", "sad" - I am obviously a bitter twisted old stick who has no faith in the altruistic wonder of the human creature, the beauty of the universe etc. I am Missing Out. I am in deaperate need of the 'love' an earlier poster alluded to, and deep down I know it. I've heard it all a million times before

Au contraire, however - I am a very optimistic and gregarious person - I love my neighbours, my community and humanity as a whole just as much as you do. I have great faith in the ability of human beings to do good and their innate drive to do so. I hold these views however because they make sense to me and reflect my experiences and my education, not because of some outdated dogma peddled to me as a child, or because I was opportunistically "rescued" - be it from drug abuse, loneliness or whatever other entirely human crisis - by a Christian infrastructure which essentially lies in wait to catch the vulnerable when they fall, and fill the holes in their lives with evangelical Polyfilla.

You shouldn't assume, Christians, that the spiritual life of a non-believer consists simply of a gaping hole where YOUR beliefs ought to be.

YABU- You don't have to go to them! Where I live most of the toddler groups are church run. I go to one of them. I also go to a non-religious baby/toddler group which is basically a group of friends hanging out at various places with our kids. If I didn't like them or had strong views about church run organizations, then it's up to me not to go to one!

I'm very much with greensleeves on this one.

I think Arcadie has been refreshingly straightforward, if unintentionally comic in her assumption that people don't 'understand more...'.

Actually, some of us are rather well-informed in our atheism or agnosticism, & have based our conclusions on extensive thinking: the notion that we're somehow failing to grasp, bless us (as it were), the manifold advantages of embracing her church's concept of salvation is almost endearingly quaint.

OTOH I do think the OP is BU. A bit, anyway.

It's a group set up by volunteers so it does indeed come under 'our gaff, our rules'. Avoid by all means - I would too - so long as you don't expect them to change for you.

Arcadie Glad that I could help. It is a good idea for people to get together to discuss what they believe in. I have never been cross to have been asked. She has never tried to force me to go. She just hands me a little invite card and says that she hopes I can make it. By now, she knows that it is not really my thing and rarely asks.

Absolutely anyone can start a mothers/babies/toddlers group. When mine were that age some mums got together, hired a hall got some toys and started one-I think it is still running-with different mums. People are only too keen to moan and not do anything themselves, they want things run for them to suit them-life isn't like that. If you don't like the church one, ignore it and start your own. Someone was moaning the other week because it all stops in the school holidays-they don't seem to consider that the organisers have school aged DCs. It is all very passive-do it yourself.

I'm endearingly quaint. Thank you! I may update facebook accordingly.

Some posters have done just that, piscesmoon

several people on this thread have already said that they run their own groups

If you can start a group, find a venue etc it's not difficult to find attendees - unsurprisingly in a largely secular society there are lots of parents keen to find a group offering social interaction and a friendly chat without the Christian subtext

do it - start a toddler group!

Bloody hell! A church playgroup talking about God. How dare they!

They will be doing Baptisms and marrying folk next- the bastards

Great Greensleeves-seems the obvious solution to me! A big improvement on moaning.