To take a 17 year-old (gay) clubbing?

[Miyazaker]

I am friendly with a 17 year-old boy at my martial arts club. He is gay and desperate to experience a gay club. My friend (who is a lesbian) and I have agreed to take him out but I am slightly concerned about being effectively in loco parentis. He is very camp and prone to shooting his mouth off about random men in the street and will be a huge bag of testosterone once inside the club. He also hasn't yet learned the art of pacing himself with the drinks.

On the other hand, he is likely to be safer with us (mid-20s, fairly responsible adults) than if he goes out with his teenage friends. We are partly taking him out as a kindness, as being a gay teenager isn't easy, and he says his parents haven't accepted it yet. He has quite a heavy beard for his age and will probably be able to get into the clubs, especially with older people.

I have no kids and am not used to hanging out with teenage boys; the dynamic is mostly of friends, but then he will say something that reminds me just how young he is. He is only a few months off 18 but pre-Year 13 and living at home.

How would you feel if someone was socialising with your 17 year-old in this situation?

Gay age of consent is 16. But the drinking thing could get you into trouble, I guess.

I suppose I would say yes, take him somewhere like Popstars (is that still going? ) which is v friendly, mixed and not so much pills-and-BJs-in-the-loos. But maybe until he turns 18 you have some ground rules -- eg he is only allowed x amount of drinks and must go home with you?

That was me SGB. I'm curious as to what the origins of this friendship are as you say 'in class'. Not sur if this may be relevant to the advice.

Hobbgoblin: she said in her OP 'martial arts class' ie she isn;t his schoolteacher, this is a hobby class for various ages.

How many of the mners answering the op have never been to a club before they reached the age of 18.
Its all good and well to state that it is illegal for the lad to be drinking and clubbing at the age of 17 but if he is going to do this, is it not safer for him to do so with trusted friends who obviously care about him?

I'm with you Juicy...I was getting into clubs at 14/15. Drinking in pubs....doing some quite silly things. A lot older now!

Ground rules for him to leave with you a good idea.

Does he have any gay friends?

You're taking a risk if you take him, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to do but if it all goes pear shaped you are the adult and therefore could be held liable. A woman here (Australia) got a real wake up call when she ended up with a prison sentence for supplying alcohol to minors (her teenage son had a party where she allowed beer, some parents took the hump and complained, etc. etc.) How would you feel if your friend ended up in a sexual situation he couldn't control, or thought he was ok with and regretted it later (I'd be saying the same thing about a 17 year old girl). Wait until he's 18 then party.

Thanks. Apologies for not rereading OP after first read and not recalling that bit of info.

I don't know, I guess one just has to tread very carefully when empowered by a position of trust or authority.

Sometimes it is easy for us to facilitate smooth rites of passage but that doesn't always make it 'right'.

On the other hand, as a heterosexual female that is easy for me to say; I know nothing of the difficulties faced by being part of a sexual minority group and perhaps this lad deserves to have this one door opened for him by a trusted and trustworthy adult so that he can more safely enjoy the kinds of experiences that are more readily available to the majority of his peers.

Bottom line though...I wouldn't. It just feels to me as though the dynamics are wrong. You know the young bloke in Queer as Folk who was a real hanger on because of the world that was opened up to him by the older two gay characters..? He was in awe and got all cocky and screwed the friendship, oh I'm all confused in my memory of this but that's what this reminds me of. There is potential for confusion and exploitation or perceived exploitation here I think.

I'm not suggesting OP or the friend want to shag this boy btw. It's the whole scene and two mature people kind of leading him into it. I'd feel weird if two people from a club I went to had wanted to take me clubbing when I was a youngster, no matter how exciting it may have seemed. My mother would have considered it v. dodgy.

I think that it is a matter of fact that 17 year olds routinely go to clubs. I started going to clubs from the age of 15, because there really was not any concept of youth clubs in the late 80's and early 90's. I would be staggered if things have changed since then. I never really enjoyed clubbing though, and am mightily pleased to not go to them any more!

To be honest, I think that your friend could best support this young man by giving information about young gay groups. I do not have any strong moral stand point against a 20 something being friends with a man who is nearly 18, or even going out for drinks together. However, as far as clubbing and the gay scene goes, he will need to find his own way. Give him support if he has a disastrous relationship, or experiences homophobic bullying. But as for finding relationships, I am sure he will work that out for himself.

so do some people think if I get the ok from his parents it would be fine to go?

LoveBeingaMummy I think he has the odd lesbian schoolfriend.

Sunnydelight from the legal (discounting the mother hen POV for a moment) standpoint for me it's more the drinking thing than the sex thing, since he is legally allowed to have sex, so I'm not sure I could get into trouble for decisions he makes on this.

hobbgoblin hmm I do see what you mean, but in many ways I do not consider myself 'of' the scene - more like a guest, since I'm not gay myself - though I do go out to gay bars with my friend fairly often. In Queer as Folk I think the fact that his new 'friends' wanted sex with him was quite important to the dynamic!

We don't get that much out of it TBH, beyond maybe a small amount of pride being the 'experienced' ones - he is a nice boy and will be great when he grows up a bit but there is currently a chasm between our and his worldview/experience and it can get old, fast.

There are worse people he could have as role model types, for sure, than a couple of people with a decent education/career (not saying this is mutually exclusive to being an evil witch or anything, BTW).

I don't mean to drip-feed, but my friend is emigrating shortly so it would probably be a one-off.

Leave it til he's 18 - yes, plenty of kids go clubbing at a younger age (I know I did!) - but you're supposed to be the responsible adult, and as that responsible adult you should not be condoning that flouting of the law. Would you buy alcohol or cigarettes for someone under age if they asked you, for example?

Once he's 18, then yep, go for it.

You have to get permission from his parents.If some adults took my minor child to a gay nightclub , i would tear them limb from limb.

Let his parents take him.

He is a minor. You should not be taking other peoples gay teenagers to nightclubs.

The london gay scene is NOT for the faint hearted. If I had a gay teenage son, I would NOT want him introduced to this by people I did not know.

I know the pull is strong, but some things are best left till you are old enough and mature enough (hopefully) to deal with it.

I was 19 when I started going clubbing in London, and not easily shocked, as having been part of the gay scene locally since I was 16. (bi)

I have known enough gay teenage boys to know what testosterone bombs they are, and with libidos the size of everest when they finally are among accepting like minded testosterone bombs, I just would not be the responsible adult if the shit were to hit the fan.

KatieStar but if it was a straight club would you merely inflict flesh wounds?

SGB but there are shades of gay club, just as there are shades of straight club - there are plenty of straight places/genres of venue I would not touch with a bargepole. I was thinking somewhere mixed and indiefied such as (previously mentioned) Popstarz, not a GHB-suffused sexfest under Vauxhall railway arches.

Unfortunately from what I've seen plenty of kids (can be pre-uni, post-18) don't have anyone to introduce them and wander round on their own/with someone they met in the queue/off the internet

I have only read your original post, and none of the replies (will read them once I've posted, as I don't want to influence my reply!).

He is 17. This is below the age of consent for drinking alcohol, and also below the age of consent for visiting nightclubs, as far as I am aware. i.e. it is illegal. If you buy him an alcoholic drink, you are breaking the law, and you are risking the club owner's license.

If he's only a few months short of his 18th birthday, he can wait and go clubbing when it's legal. Whether the club is gay or straight is irrelevant really - straight teenagers are banned from clubs until they turn 18 too! (I do understand why he wants to go to a gay club, but he's just going to have to wait - that's the law).

P.S. To answer your original question: if someone in their mid-20s offered to take my 17-year-old child clubbing, I would tell them where to go. At 17 they are still, legally, children. Leave them alone until they are adults. It's hard for parents to stop feeling protective of their kids, even when they are (almost) grown up!

It's one thing for a bunch of 17-year-olds to sneak into a club and try to con the barman into believing that they are old enough to drink. We've all done it; it's a rite of passage really. It's quite another for a supposedly responsible adult knowlingly and illegally to facilitate this though.

Well said MummyDragon! I am a licensee and people forget that we are human, we make mistakes with ID, as do our staff and it's getting harder and harder to tell who is over 18 and who isn't these days. You risk our entire business, our income and our staff's jobs by facilitating under age drinking let alone the legalities for youselves if caught supplying an underage person with alcohol. Just be a responsible citizen and don't do it. On behalf of every pub and club owner in the country, think about us for a change and the impact it could have on an already struggling industry. Pubs are closing at the rate of 6 per day just now in the UK due to changes in licensing legislation, hike in duty, the credit crunch and vastly increased running costs for electricity, gas etc. Don't make it any harder for us please.

Gillybean I know that it is difficult for licensees, particularly in the current environment.

But how hard is it to check ID if you are already employing bouncers? Surely if they are IDing and then letting people in regardless of their age that is a matter of their judgement/the bar's policies rather than an honest mistake?

Some places are more stringent because they have to be (ie they attract more than their share of the youth. My local 'Spoons gives me warm glow as the only place in town (apart from Tesco) where I still get ID'd .

I don't see why not. As long as you are able to take responsibility for him in some respect, not just because of his age but because of his inexperience in the whole nightclub environment.
Are some posters for real? I don't know a single person who didnt go out clubbing when they were 17! I was going out at 16 although my parents didnt have a clue of course.

If it was my son and he was almost 18 I wouldn't have an issue with it. I'd rather he went on a night out with mature friends than hung around in carparks getting drunk.

Miyazaker: It's not hard to check ID at all, the problem lies in the ability to buy ID's over the internet these days, you also get some kids borrowing ID from their older siblings and sometimes they look very alike in the pictures so it's very difficult to tell it's not their own ID.

It's unfortunately a lot harder than you would first think and the quality of the fake ID's (or some of them anyway) makes it virtually impossible to tell them from the real deal.

If we let someone in who is underage (even if we have genuinely ID'd them and done our very best to check) the law is not the same as it is for Joe Bloggs on the street in that you are innocent until proven guilty. It is the opposite way about for licensees in that we are guilty and have to prove our innocence, which I'm sure you can understand is not easy at all and in some cases virtually impossible!

The licensing boards and Police are utter bastards at times towards licensees and that looks set to continue for the forseeable future. I would like to state for the record though that I am totally in favour of test purchasing where the Police send in underage people deliberately, these youths are not allowed to lie if asked their age or allowed to present fake ID's so if you get caught serving one of these guys then you get what you deserve!

Miyazaker - you are really hellbent on doing this?

Why is this so important to you?