To not believe there is any such condition as....

[BunnyLebowski]

...Oppositional Defiance Disorder??

This is the "disorder" that the mother of this 12 year old brat is claiming he has. He has stolen cars, set houses on fires, hospitalised another child by beating him to a pulp and thrown rocks at passers-by.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1195221/Dont-son-Asbo-hes-got-ODD-thats-oppositional-defiant-disord er.html

Now I know it's The Daily Wail and so on it's own isn't a reliable source but the mum was just on GMTV defending her son's behaviour and blaming it on his "condition".

So rather than accept that she's dragged up a violent, disrespectful criminal she can attribute all his behaviour to this lovely catch-all title for "cheeky f*ckeritis". How convenient.

here here Stewie

I'm a textbook case of ADHD (undiagnosed as it wasn't done when I was a child).

IMO we have a non-conformist personality
that doesn't necessarily fit in with the expectations of society.

We don't tend to follow the crowd like the average person, making school and the work place extremely difficult environments for us.

Perhaps we need to come up with more creative ways of teaching these children, rather than dishing out ritalin

My sister (now an adult) was diagnosed with ADHD when she was younger. I think there are some issues with recognising it in adults, but I have read that girls with ADHD tend to suffer more as adults as they get less help when younger - their symptoms are often less extreme than that of boys in childhood, and therefore they don't get as much support or attention. When adults they then have problems with things like being on time / time management, organising themselves, etc.

I didn't bring my sister up as a parent, so i can't answer the question properly, but I would say the main difference between naughty children and those with ADHD is that children with ADHD genuinely cannot help their behaviour, very much want to be "good" and "normal" but can't, and this is a cause of huge distress to them.

It took years for my sister to be diagnosed and she was never medicated. THe school said it wasn't helpful to let her diagnosis "label" her within the school. No support or counselling was ever available. I'm sure this has contributed to the mental health problems she suffers now. And this whole easy diagnosis thing makes me laugh - even now, when she has sat in a Dr's surgery with blood pouring from her arms where she has self harmed, cigarette burns up her legs, saying she is going to kill herself, the most she has got is a referral to a youth counselling place - the sort of drop in centre where they give out free condoms and advice on STD's or breaking up with your boyfriend.

Sorry, this has turned a bit long and ranty, but it annoys me when people dismiss conditions like ADHD or behavioural problems as naughtiness or bad parenting - they have obviously never seen someone who has been genuinely affected and witnessed how much distress it causes, to them and their families.

You would of been fine in my mums class annoying devil ,she said she always enjoyed teaching those who were a bit more erm 'challenging'. One of her very close friends was given ritalin as a child and to this day still hasnt forgiven his parents ,nor does he forget how he felt when he stopped taking it ,'like someone had switched the lights back on ' is how he described it

If this is a condition, how is this particular child's case to be managed? His mum is unable to control him, if it's genuinely medical then prosecution is a thorny issue and as the child gets older it's possible that he will be increasingly unsafe to be in the wider society.

I presuming that it wouldn't be classed as 'mental health' so he could not be sectioned/closely monitored for other peoples' safety.

Regardless of whether it's poor parenting or a genuine medical condition, he'll be pinballed around the Youth Justice and social work system until he's considered old enough to account for the anti-social behaviour and imprisoned, because as a society we really haven't got any joined up way of dealing with aggressive and violent young people.

A very sad tale all round .

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting that he can't be helped, more that once things reach this stage when these children are teenagers then they won't be (whatever the reason for the behaviour) because it's seen as 'too late' and a problem which we don't know how to solve.

Hobbgoblen - my Dsister used to work in a nursery where two boys had been diagnosed with ADHD. One she was convinced was just a bit hyper and prob didn't really have a problem- but the other defo had something wrong. Apparently he would just suddenly lose it - his eyes would glaze over (similar to when epolieptic children have 'vacant' episodes) and he'd run off to do something crazy and destructive - then return to whatever activity they were doing quite happily!

epolieptic? WTF? I meant epileptic of course .

yanbu. unless you think that the DSM IV (which includes ODD) published by the American Psychiatric Association is bolleaux.

As to whether ODD or other disorder explains the extent of this boy's behaviour I haven't the foggiest, not being a trained psych or anything.

ODD is a description of a set of behaviours - says nothing about the aetiology / cause. (ie is it something wrong with his brain - or something wrong in his environment). It's significant because children with this 'condition' can cause significant harm to others or indeed themselves. I guess it helps that it is flagged and he should be monitered and offered help. Primarily this will involve helping the parents parent better, but should also mean a coherent behavioural plan is worked out that the parents and the school should follow. Jury is out on how much can be done to change the trajectory - which sadly is closely linked to anti-social or psychopathic personality disorder in adults. And there is little that can be done to 'treat' such adult cases, though they can improve with age or if environmental circumstances change - for instance a steady relationship. It's not the same as ADD, though as conduct problems often look quite similar to ADD ritalin is often (mis)prescribed.

v. informative post julesrose. Can I ask how often ODD would occur by itself rather than as comorbid with say ASD or ADHD?

are you a Paediatrician then?

ds1 does all teh behaviours with his disorder (AS) and hurts other poeple, tries to set fires..... funny how I managed to drag up two children (one also sn other sen) described by school as delightful as well, must remember not to aprent differently all the time

It's absolutely ridiculous to have a disorder that excuses these little brats from taking responsibility for their actions and that excuses their parents from any culpability in how their kid behaves.'

yeah yeah fuck off heard it all before

'If this is a condition, how is this particular child's case to be managed? His mum is unable to control him, if it's genuinely medical then prosecution is a thorny issue and as the child gets older it's possible that he will be increasingly unsafe to be in the wider society.

I presuming that it wouldn't be classed as 'mental health' so he could not be sectioned/closely monitored for other peoples' safety.

Regardless of whether it's poor parenting or a genuine medical condition, he'll be pinballed around the Youth Justice and social work system until he's considered old enough to account for the anti-social behaviour and imprisoned, because as a society we really haven't got any joined up way of dealing with aggressive and violent young people.

A very sad tale all round .
'

Interesting post

BIBIC did some research on just this (should still be googleable).

My own experience is that yes we get shuttled around a lot but he has been referred now for input from a special team that links betwen mental health and the criminal agencies to identify those at risk of causing an offence. Time will tell if any good. If not we shall try something else.

I've taught in a range of schools and have encountered some bad behaviour, psrticularly on supply where you don't know the routines/children etc for a one day stint. Some kids might be highlighted by the usual class teacher as having behavioural difficulties but ADHD is not bandied about as freely as some might think. In the two cases in my experience where a child was labelled as such, one did stand out as having almost compulsive anti-social behaviour, whereas the other, who had ADD (no H) was quiet and ostensibly very well behaved but would lose track and drift off and frequently forget the answer she had just thought of.

My friend's son possibly has ODD and she is a brilliant mum, structured, patient and consistent in the face of extremely aggressive behaviour at times. I actually find it quite upsetting some of the things people are saying on here dismissing real difficulties that children experience.

Psycopathy is a disorder too.

It doesn't make the dehaviour or psycopaths or psycopathic children acceptable though, or excuse their behaviour.

but why has he managed to stop doing it with the ankle thingy on since the police did that?

seems bizarre to me that with the threat of being properly warned and with proper consequences on the line, he can control himself - if the condition is true for him, surely being told "no more or it'll be into care for you, m'lad" wouldn't make any difference?

No it doesn't excuse it, but it can help explain it and once a pattern of behaviour has been established as a disorder then it becomes more possible to treat it appropriately or give the children support to help them adapt to their environment.

If a child has AS then this will be his diagnosis. If there is no organic / brain reason for child's anti-social behaviour - and the history fits - they will be diagnosed with conduct disorder or if severe, ODD. Conduct problems often co-exist with ADD because (a) impulsivity and innatention - the main features of ADD - are also prominant symptoms in conduct disorder so can be hard to tell them apart or (b) someone with ADD has recived so much negative attention over the years they have developed a co-morbid conduct disorder. Diagnosis of ODD is not meant to excuse their behaviour or prevent the child / parents for taking responsibility. But there is a grey area isn't there. If the parents upbringing was pretty poor, and it led them to be unable to parent appropriately so their child behaves really badly and fits the critera of CD or ODD then who's fault is it exactly? I've never seen a case of ODD where child has had great parenting - if this is the case I'd suspect something else was going on.
There's huge debate about whether psychopathy should be classified as a medical condition or mental illness as it is a personality disorder and there is no decent treatment.

sorry no paras. Appalling!

Surely it is better to identify a set of behaviours and attempt to address them rather than just write a child off as a 'little shit' which I am shocked at seeing written about children by mumsnetters. Personally, I believe that it is an SN, but in any case I would rather see a child being helped by others if the parent genuinely can't than to see him or her grow up and become isolated from society.

damnhayfever Thu 02-Jul-09 11:59:40 Add a message | Report post | Contact poster

"dear cory the bit about the beatings was a joke as was sayin my kids have o.d.d."

I appreciate that you weren't recommending beatings as a solution for the modern age

just wondering how come there is so much inter-generational violence in the medieval and early modern times if firmer discipline was all that was needed to sort it out

I have a little shit darling who has behavioural problems by age two his rages were unbelievable - hitting his head so hard on the floor he'd knock himself out, throwing chairs at glass doors, trying to pull tv over. He was physically stronger then me and trying to get him dressed risked being knocked out as he flung himself backwards in temper. And when i asked for help i was told this was normal terrible twos . He is no better at 4 and i have had no help because he has no diagnosed problem If they refuse to diagnose anything under 5 how the hell do you get the help when you need it -which is when they are young.

What upsets me is the flippant attitude of the mum in the article, but if her experience of the profession that is supposed to help is the same as mine -she probably gave up years ago. Its been bad enough trying to get some one to help during the last 3 years.

Someone should help the kid before he is a serial offender, he is going to miss out on so much of life otherwise.