To think that banning teachers from being members of the BNP is outrageous!

[londonone]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8112747.stm

Now I abhor the BNP and their policies however they are a LEGAL political party and as a teacher I would find it appalling that my freedom to join legal political parties was being curtailed.

If the establishment believe the BNP to be that abhorrent then they should make them illegal. If a teacher acts in a racist, sexist, homophobic way AT WORK, then discipline them on that basis.

If BNP membership is to be banned then what about the SWP, some would say they are as extreme.

BitOfFun, it was another poster I was thnking of. I've only just caught up on this one so it was quite a way back.

Though I disgree with you too of course.

I disagree BitOfFun, regardless of the poster's motivations, her point is still valid (or not). Her posting history is not relevant, nor are ad hominem arguments.

If this was one of those subtle (or not so subtle) racism posts ('AIBU to think foreigners should learn to speak English' or similar) then it would be more reasonable to question the poster's history.

Evidently some people agree with the point, and could have started the thread themselves, and they are mostly likely not BNP supporters. So shouting 'clost BNP member' every 20 minutes isn't really contributing much.

I tghink that is a good post solidbrass. By discriminating against BNP we play right into their hands by making them look e 'hard done by'
The way to defeat them is to look at what drove so many voters to the BNP.Give them a credible alternative to vote for !

FFS bitoffun, I saw it on the BBC website today and thought it would be an interesting debate!

They could have started the thread, but they didn't. Because most people aren't arsed enough about their right to join the BNP, because they don't want to. But we often debate politics on here, freedom of speech etc etc. And it does make a difference if you doubt a poster's motives, because you wonder what they are playing at by being so disingenuous.

Londonone, I haven't accused you of anything, I've asked a question and described the impression I've gained from reading your contribution to a number of threads about the BNP. I'm happy to stand corrected, but fail to see what I should retract.

I really don't know about banning membership, SGB and others have made excellent points about the primacy of democracy.

Mayorquimby, the concern with a teacher being a BNP member is not that they might share their views with their students, but that they might include or exclude, encourage or punish, based on those views. It's not about what they think, but about how those beliefs inform their actions.

If you truly believe that anyone who is not from an anglo background is inferior, how can you prevent that belief from influencing the way that you treat your students? The same goes for someone who believes that women are inferior, or men, or blondes, or hobgoblins, or any permutation of prejudice.

SomeGuy, from my perspective the conflation of membership of a political party with membership of a religion is flawed, as is that of a political party that holds and extreme and narrow viewpoint with a mainstream party. For a start, joining a party with radical beliefs, whether it's the BNP or the Communist Party, is an active decision driven by an agreement with the policies and beliefs of that party - a rational person does not join the BNP if they believe in racial equality, nor do they join the Communist Party if they believe in private enterprise. A particular religion, on the other hand, can be entered into as a convert but many are simply born into their religion. The extent to which they agree or disagree with the stance of their church hierarchy can vary enormously. Hence the fact that we, as a society, tend to draw a distinction between fundamentalist adherents to the extreme branches of any given religion and mainstream members.

I am arsed because I generally object the way that teachers are held to different and much higher standards than parents and are then blamed for all sorts!

I think the use of the word 'outrageous' (followed by an exclamation mark) in your OP probably didn't do you any favours londonone.

Teachers are 'held to different and much higher standards than parents' because they are paid to teach, it's a job.

I agree.

if the BNP are recognised as a legitimate political party then why should you be banned from supporting them?

of course in an ideal world they wouldn't exist as a political party at al so not be an issue.
i certainly wouldn't be happy if my childs teacher was a member of the party, but how can we say we are in a 100% free and democratic country if certain political parties are banned within certain professions?

carpe - I haven't contributed to a number of threads concerning the BNP maybe 2 or 3 incl this one but there have been many that I haven't posted on. If you look at my posting most of my posts are generally on matters regarding schools and education.

I find the principle outrageous Kingrolo, not the fact that I can't join the BNP!

Yes but I am talking about the standards they are held to in their private lives which they are not PAID for.

I should lay off the !!!!!!!! though!

Ah there you are. BitOfFun, it was CarpePerDiems I was thinking of.

CarpePerDiems, it works equally well if you replace your concerns with 'religion'. Many religions you actually have a ceremony (baptism etc) on becoming a full member and if you become a god parent you swear a sacred oath to guide the children into the same beliefs.

Many religions are homophobic to the point where they are campaigning to change the law to allow more discrimination.

Whereas, much as I despise the BNP it is possible to vote for them because your local Tory candidate is supporting the new bypass being built or has been caught stealing.

Why teachers? why not doctors, nurses, lawyers...anyone who has contact with the public?

Anyway, doesn't matter. It's wrong. Much as I hate the bnp and actually have a nice little fantasy where every member wakes up one morning with that skin problem that makes your skin turn black! - take a moment to imagine that - when you tell someone where they may or may not be politically you put the first foot onto a very highly polished slippery slope!

And tbh, it takes you closer to nazi germany than I ever want to get and is actually the sort of thing the bnp itself would do!

"Mayorquimby, the concern with a teacher being a BNP member is not that they might share their views with their students, but that they might include or exclude, encourage or punish, based on those views. It's not about what they think, but about how those beliefs inform their actions.

If you truly believe that anyone who is not from an anglo background is inferior, how can you prevent that belief from influencing the way that you treat your students? The same goes for someone who believes that women are inferior, or men, or blondes, or hobgoblins, or any permutation of prejudice"

well in that case you would have to exclude any practising roman catholics as they are active supporters of a group that is homophobic and has a long history of sexism. you can't ban members of a group on the basis of what they "might" do.by all means hold them up to the highest of professional standards in their teachings and if they come up short nail them to the wall.
communist teachers "might" discriminate against the children of well off capitalists (in fact we had one teacher in our private school who was quite openly hostile towards us because he perceived us to be spoilt/undeserving little shits,don't know why he thought in a private school.)
green party members as i said earlier might treat the kids who arrive in 4x4's worse than those who are walked to school by their earth mums who grow organic vegetables.
how about an american teacher who got a scholarship on the back of the UNCF?
or a member of any group which promotes a specific ethnicity?
all of us hold personal beliefs which have the potential to make us treat others in a prejudicial manner, but until we actually do should we be punished for it?
especially when the crime in question is being a member of a legally sanctioned political party.and especially when we extend the opportunity for people with other beliefs to teach and leave their political or religious beliefs at the door.

"For a start, joining a party with radical beliefs, whether it's the BNP or the Communist Party, is an active decision driven by an agreement with the policies and beliefs of that party - a rational person does not join the BNP if they believe in racial equality, nor do they join the Communist Party if they believe in private enterprise. A particular religion, on the other hand, can be entered into as a convert but many are simply born into their religion. The extent to which they agree or disagree with the stance of their church hierarchy can vary enormously. "

which is why the example of a practising member of a religion has been used throughout rather than someone who is merely born into it and lapsed.
because practising is a pro-active move.which requires time and often financial support.
so it can be assumed that someone who practices, gives up their time and their money, must actively support and believe in the tenants and pillars of their religion. otherwise why would they give up their time and money for something they don't believe in?

Presumably you couldn't legally ban people on the basis that they had once been members.

So if this were to be enforced, presumably what would happen would be that some BNP member teachers would resign from their jobs (and be presented as martyrs) while others would resign their party membership and carry on teaching while still campaigning actively for the party, without actually being members.
They could still donate, leaflet, and campaign in other ways, not to mention vote for BNP.

I'm amazed anyone thinks this is a good idea. It's one thing to not want your child to be taught by racists (and I'm with you on this) but it's quiter another to think banning teachers from BNP membership would actually achieve anything other than a huge propaganda coup for them.

(Londonone asked a question some time ago: I've been around a while, and only ever post under this name). I agree with BOF that posters' motives are an issue.

I maintain that children are more vulnerable than adults. There are lots of professions where I would not want BNP members to be practising but if they let their beliefs affect their work then they could face action.

Children are not always in a position to judge if they have been a victim of racism. Their welfare should not be left in the hands of people who fundamentally despise them.

I volunteer in a school with a very high number of non-white children, my children attend a school where perhaps 25% of children are white. I simply do not see how a teacher with racist views could possibly do their best for these kids in these schools. I don't know how they could possibly function. What would be motivating them?

I plan to start a PGCE in September and my desire comes from wanting to see all children achieving their potential. Teaching is not the sort of job you can do if you do not care about the children.

I think the case that Nancy66 mentioned earlier on says it all.

How the sod could I leave my half-Jewish child in the care of a declared and active Nationalist?

BNP are revolting, disgusting racists, and in a profession such as teaching there are already things you can't do in order to protect the kids in your care. You can't shag them, even if they've been legal by two years. Nor can you join a party that directly links back to Oswald Moseley/Hitler, and whose raison d'etre is to deny the humanity of many of your students, because that might be a teensy bit unfortunate when you're meant to be applying/promoting equal opportunities policies amongst the kids.

Is the BNP a legit party?

News today is that human rights action is being taken over their refusal to admit non white members- before I am convinced of their legitimacy I shall sit on my hands and await the outcome of that.

However, if they are found not to be in breach of huiman rights then I can't agree with the ban even though i'd have absolute distatse for a member and would absolutely pull my children or support from a school where I knew a teacher was an active BNP supporter.

I personally believe that the BNP should be given enough rope to hang themselves. Banning them will only turn them into martyrs imo. The way to combat their hateful ideology is through education.

As a black person who went to school in the UK in the 1970s, I have personally experienced the racism of teachers and I bet most of them voted Tory, Labour or Lib-Dems.

You cannot control what people think but you can stop them from peddling their hate through rules and regulation which I believe are already in place.