to think it outrageous that Britain refuses to give back the Elgin Marbles

[itwasntme]

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/arts_and_culture/8110010.stm

So Greece has built a museum that it hopes will safely house the Elgin Marbles, and the British Museum still refuses to hand them back.

The marbles are such an important part of Greece's history, they have no place in the British Museum. They were stolen by Lord Elgin, not saved.

I really think that there should be more pressure to give them back. This is the sort of thing that makes me embarrassed to be British.

Can't they just say they are borrowing them and that they will give them back....but just don't.

What would happen?

The BM hides behind the fact that as a national museum they're prohibited by law from disposing of the collection (except in a few specific circs) - however, if they wanted to return them and put pressure on the govt, there could be an Act of Parliament to make it happen. It would not be the museum's decision but they would be likely to have a fair bit of influence if they chose to.

Re permanent loan, they can't do that because Greece would have to accept British ownership of the marbles for the loan to go ahead and of course Greece feels it can't do that.

Didn't Wallis Budge do the same with the Egyptian artefacts in the BM?

How long have the Elgin Marbles been at the BM?

ABetaDad - interested to see the evidence for that?
The standard line is that some were in unused parts of Aldwych Underground station/others in the museum cellar/others placed against the wall in the gallery. I would be surprised if they had ALL been on one ship, though not entirely surprised if they evacuated some and kept it a secret.

I thought the BM didn't liek the way the greeks were conserving them so nicked them then carried on messing them up in the name of conservation

Heated - 1816.

Kathy - here is a link to an obituary of the Sir William Crawford the gunnery officer on the Rodney that was published in the Times. See the first paragraph.

I also read it on a website dedicated to former members of the Rodney crew.

No they were not ALL on the ship but many were it seems.

Greece was still occupied by the Ottoman Empire at the point when the marbles were taken. They were under threat - but as much from European tourists nicking bits for their collections as from anything else, so Elgin doing that on a grand scale arguably did prevent that happening but then you can hardly blame the Greeks for it at that point since a. it wasn't them doing it and b. they weren't really in a position to prevent it, what with being occupied.
Lots of marble sculpture was being destroyed at that point by being put into lime kilns, but it's not clear whether or not this would have happened to these marbles as they were clearly attached to a building.

Ahem. Parthenon Marbles if you please. wanders off muttering about thieving Elgin barsteward

Thanks Kathy. There would be a lot of empty museums in Europe and America if everything was returned to it's place of origin.

BM, in its infinite wisdom, tried to clean them with wire brushes. Caused a rather large amount of damage.

That's interesting ABetaDad, thanks for the link. It isn't in the 1998 edition of the standard book on the subject (Lord Elgin and the Marbles by William St Clair) but it's possible it was only made public after that date; will have to check the later edition to see if he mentions it.

Courtesy of Wiki

Rationale for returning to Athens
Defenders of the request for the Marble's return claim that the marbles should be returned to Athens on moral and artistic grounds. The arguments include:

The main stated aim of the Greek campaign is to reunite the Parthenon sculptures around the world in order to restore "organic elements" which "at present remain without cohesion, homogeneity and historicity of the monument to which they belong" and allow visitors to better appreciate them as a whole;[55][56]
Presenting all the extant Parthenon Marbles in their original historical and cultural environment would permit their "fuller understanding and interpretation";[57]
Precedents have been set with the return of fragments of the monument by Sweden,[58] the University of Heidelberg, Germany,[59] the Getty Museum in Los Angeles.[59] and the Vatican[60];
Safekeeping of the Marbles would be ensured at the New Acropolis Museum, situated to the south of the Acropolis hill. It was built to hold the Parthenon sculptures arranged in the same way as they would have been on the Parthenon. The museum's facilities have been equipped with state-of-the-art technology for the protection and preservation of exhibits;[61]
The marbles were obtained illegally and hence should be returned to their rightful owner;[62]
Returning the Elgin Marbles would not set a precedent for other restitution claims because of the distinctively "universal value" of the Parthenon.[63]

[edit] Rationale for retaining in London

General view of the room displaying the Elgin MarblesA range of slightly different points have been put by British Museum spokespersons over the years in defence of retention of the Elgin Marbles within the museum. The main points include:

the maintenance of a single worldwide-oriented cultural collection, all viewable in one location, thereby serving as a world heritage centre. The British Museum is a creative and living achievement of the Enlightenment, while the Parthenon, on the other hand, is a ruin that can never now be restored. [45]
the assertion that fulfilling all restitution claims would empty most of the world's great museums;
the marbles were saved from what would have been, or would be, severe damage from pollution and other factors, if they had been relocated to Athens;
a legal principle of limitation would apply, i.e. the ability to pursue claims expires after a period of time prescribed by law;[citation needed]
More than half the original marbles are lost and therefore the return of the Elgin Marbles could never complete the collection in Greece; and
a legal position that the museum is banned by charter from returning any part of its collection.[64

There's a lot of argument about how much damage was actually caused - BM say not a lot, Greeks say a lot, of course.

IMO the most persuasive argument for return isn't the legal one or the contexual one at all, it's simply that the Greeks (in general) really really want them and most people here probably aren't that bothered. In general I am a strong supporter of the value of museums which contain things from elsewhere in the world, not just national museums with nothing but their own country's stuff in, but if most people here don't actually want them it starts to get a bit silly.
Am still a bit dithery about it though.

@serenity ”Ahem. Parthenon Marbles if you please. wanders off muttering about thieving Elgin barsteward”

@Heated ”Rationale for returning to Athens
Defenders of the request for the Marble's return claim that the marbles should be returned to Athens on moral and artistic grounds.”

Another rationale is that the Parthenon marbles were dedicated to the city’s Goddess and should be returned to her. Arguably most reasonable of the Greek gods but said Goddess has a potential for being vengeful if provoked.

www.theoi.com/Olympios/AthenaWrath.html

This thread is 13 years old...

They should give back all of the other artefacts from other countries too, and also lets return the crown jewels and wealth stolen from south asia and africa whilst we’re talking about historical theft

On a visit to the Acropolis some years ago the guide started the usual anti-British diatribe about the Elgin marbles, which he bought by the way. She said he didn't get all of them so I asked what happened to the rest, Oh, they were destroyed by marauding Turks. When I suggested then the Elgin had done the world a favour she wasn't amused nor when we questioned the amount of antiquities in other museums, especially the Pergamon in Berlin. It seems that they look on the British as a pushover.

Whoops, just noticed that original date!

But at least it’ll reflect true ownership. And I read somewhere that’s a disingenuous argument because they have loads more stuff in storage that’s not on display.

Returning everything isn’t the only option either.

They could come to fair compromises and negotiated agreements. Such as a loaning agreement that benefits all parties.

😂oh dear

@JudgeJ

And?

Still topical. Not much changed on Parthenon marbles front in 13 years. Marbles still haven’t been returned. People and media still debate about this. I find the debate interesting so resurrected an existing thread instead of starting a new one.

More recent article from August 2022 if it makes you feel better.

Is British Museum’s stance shifting on Parthenon marbles return?

Crikey this thread is practically an antiquity

Rather fitting for a thread about marbles from antiquity…

The people from whom they bought them are dead. To whom are they supposed to give them “back”?

Who in Greece today do you think has claim on them?