to be annoyed at my sisters attitude towards her daughters behaviour?

[5inthebed]

Today after school, me and the DS's went to my mams (who had collected my 5 year old neice from school as well). My sister (DN's mam) was there when we got there. The kids went to go play in their toy room come bedroom that my mam has there for them. As usual DS2 (3) and DN were winding each other up, DS2 has SN and thinks its funny as he gets a reaction out of DN. I always try and tell him its wrong and not to do it, and usually he is good once he gets over the excitement. DN does sometimes go out her way to get DS2 to wind her up (lies on the floor so he jumps on her, smacks him then runs away, pretends to cry)

Anyway, DS2 starts screaming in pain, and all I can hear is DN saying "I didn't mean it" and then starting to cry hysterically herself. DS2 comes through really crying his heart out followed by DS1, who tells me that DN has bit DS2. Sure enough on DS2's back there is a very nasty bite mark, all purple and you can see about 6 teeth marks from both top and bottom teeth.

While I'm trying to calm Ds2 down, DN runs in all upset and instead of my sister telling her off, she gets a big huge cuddle and told "There, there. It's ok"

No its not bloody ok! She is 5 years old and has just bit my DS2!

After a few word with each other, its clear that she thinks it was probably just what Ds2 deserved, as he is always winding DN up. Now DS3 might be an annoying little boy, but he has never marked her by biting/nipping smacking her!

AIBU to think that my sister could have at least told DN that it was wrong to bite and that by cuddling her it's showing her otherwise?

Biting is unacceptable, but so is jumping on someone. The trouble with the term special needs is it encompasses a huge range of learning problems from dyslexia to severe mental handicap. A child with special needs may or may not know acceptable social boundaries, and may or may not be capable of playing with other children. If this SN child isn't capable of treating his cousin well though he should be being supervised. She should still have had to apologise for biting him, but maybe he should have been made to apologise to her if he mistreated her in the past.

Katiestar, the reality is that there are often no suitable schools for violent children.

My son is 7, has autism and ADHD and is often extremely violent, towards adults and towards children. He always has been, though it is improving. He's also academically able. So there are no suitable schools round here - special schools here cater for children with learning difficulties, physical difficulties or emotional and behavioural difficulties, none of which are suitable for a child with autism with a normal IQ.

So mainstream is it. With full-time support from a TA trained in restraint and extra support from another funded TA when 2 pairs of hands are required. It usually works and other children are not disrupted as he is removed when disrupted. I am actually happy with him being in mainstream as I think it is good for him. Parents of kids in his class might not agree, but there IS nowhere else for him to go. I know that mine isn't the only area where this is the case.

"But what I cannot accept is seeing a class full of other children continually disrupted ,hurt and frightened." Are you speaking from personal experience here Katiestar, because it sounds like a load of twaddle tbh. No school would allow a child, SN or not, to disrupt a class in such a way.

I did not start this post to discuss my son, yet because I mentioned he has SN, this seems to have been the one thing some people have picked up on and can't see the problem in my neice biting him. I wonder if I hadn't mentioned the fact he had SN would I have gotten a totally different responce?

To re-iterate. My DS2 might jump up and down on my neice, but he doesn't hurt her in a way like biting! Biting is a totally different thing. I'd be mortified if he ever did bite someone! And if he ever did, I would expect him to apologise to the person and I would explain to him it is wrong.

YANBU - 5 is plenty old enough to understand that biting is wrong. Your sister should have talked to her and asked her to say sorry - if only for her own development, as you say what would happen if she did this at school.

"Sure enough on DS2's back there is a very nasty bite mark, all purple and you can see about 6 teeth marks from both top and bottom teeth."

1. A child with SN is quite often delayed in their learning. According to DD1's consultant (Paed) levels of self-control & impulsivity go hand in hand with levels of learning. You can't expect many 3 year olds with SN to have the self-control of most NT 3 year olds.

1. Biting is a VERY serious thing. It causes injury, scarring & pain. Dogs get put down for it. My DD2 is a (NT) 23 month old biter. I come down like a ton of bricks for biting. IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. Hitting, pushing, shoving etc., are all poor behaviour, but do not compare to biting.

1. Children often cry when they have done wrong. They realise that they have gone too far & they are on a journey to a consequence that they can not stop. Whatever that may be. They are sometimes sorry for what they have done, & more often sorry for being caught

1. The DN bit the OP's daughter on the BACK. Which means he was turned away from her, whatever previous events. At any rate, it would have been right for the Sister to encourage an apology for her biting, even if then acknowledging the reason for the bite.

I don't think a child with SN has absolutely no control, but the stress of every day environments means that self-control is so much harder for them to access, that the impulsivity & meltdown takes over. DD1 is often remorseful for her actions, but will repeat them in seconds.

By katiestar on Thu 18-Jun-09 21:24:57
Genuine question here.Not getting at anyone.If a child with say ASD can't help but hurt other kids , if it is truly beyond his control , then why are they allowed in mainstream schools to endanger other children ? In these days when health and safety means our kids can't climb trees at school,can't playfottie without the right boots , why is it OK for them to be cooped up with someone who cannot be stopped from hurting them ?

only just caught up with this thread but wanted to answer this question......

katie star my DS has ODD and atypical autism and spent 3 years in MS school harming other children and trashing classrooms. Everyone agreed my DS had autism but because he was very inteeigent it took 2 years of constant battles with the LEA and CAHMS to get him diagnosed. ALl this time my DS had to attend MS. He would trash classrooms and hurt other children, he was excluded numerous times and i tried to get him the extra support and help he needed BUT without the diagnosis my son had to stay in MS, he was a huge health and safety risk and the second MS school he went to actually said they had done a risk assessment on him and he had scored off the chart....despite this the LEA STILL said he belonged in MS till a dianosis was made!!!!
Eventually after being excluded from 2 MS schools he got diagnosed and was whisked off to a special autistic school. so the answer to your question is that most ASD children can cope in MS WITH huge levels of support (1:1), they also need space to vent their anxiety and frustration and a member of staff needs to control this space to ensure no other child is nearby. WITHOUT DX LEAs DO NOT LISTEN OR PROVIDE SUPPORT AND DX ARE VER HARD TO GET.

TBH, I don't even think Katiestar is taking much notice of what is being said. I also feel along with a few others that she has no experience of SN.
My advice to her would be when she is giving her opinion to say it is her opinion, if she feels strongly against someones post don't criticise directly, think before you write, ask yourself, will I hurt someones feelings by what I have wrote. Tell people you don't know how to express yourself and this may sound wrong etc.
Failing all that help out in a special school to start to understand SN, disability awareness training, triple P parenting course, ask about what you don't understand.
In my opinion if you think a child with ASD disrupts a class that much they shouldn't be there well that's her ignorance shining through in her opinion.
If you lived close to me, I would give you a days worth of insight, following my DS who is down syndrome, with plenty of medical issues including a heart condition, severe challenging behaviour, severe developmental delay (8 years old on par with 18 months), SPD, mobility issues and diagnosed traits in ASD, ADHD, ODD, OCD and ADD. My DD who isn't as bad, ADHD, ADD and ODD. 2 DS with GDD, 2 DD, 1 with DS. Feel free to get in touch and criticise my life and how I parent.
This is not ment to offend anyone, just trying to help a situation, I am not counceller or anything, just a parent so please be kind to me and if you want to offend me thats fine also, just think about the position I am in and the life I may lead. HTH

5inthebed
I don't think anyone believe that the factthat your child was hurt does not matter because he has SN.
I think some are saying that because of his SN (and his very young age) it is harder to gauge what really happened - and my contribution ( welcome or not) was that a 5 year old is not old enough to make allowance for any winding up/provocoation and thatthey should therefore not have been left alone.

I am not excusing your sister or your niece. I am just saying that in order to help your son learn, to protect him AND to teach and protect your neice - neither you nor your sister should have left the two of them unsupervised.

But no one thinks that his being bitten was OK.

Don't let Katiestars massive and overwhelming misunderstanding about SN make you feel under attack . You're not.

it really is hard to parent a SN child and the situation described in the OP is why i have stopped spending time with one set of nephews.
My son is very aggressive when he loses his temper. My sister and my friends have been very careful when explaining DSs issues to their children. They have answered all questions honestly and tried to teach their children about why DS acts the way he does and also about what can trigger DS behaviour. These children are aged between 3 and 12 and all are fantastic at coping with DS and they are all very careful how they are with him and help him.
My inlaws children are a nightmare but its not their fault, my SIL and BIL have not talked to their children about DS and his issues, when they do see DS they wind him up and are generally not very nice to him which means his behavious escalates very quickley and can end up in aggressive outbursts.

In the OP situation i would have made a point of telling DS not to sit on DN but TBH this would have served no purpose other than to appear to be disciplining, DS would not understand he was being punished and would probably deny doing it anyway! I would have then explained to DS that he was bit because he was doing something DN didnt like but that DN was not nice for biting and would have said in front of DN mum that i was sure DN would be told off for biting because its a horrid thing to do.

Supervision 24/7 is not always possible and all we can do is safeguard against problems like this.

supervision 24/7 is not possible of course but in this scenario from the OP these kids, v young and one with SN, were off in another room playing unsupervised. Much as we all need and want a break, it is clear that if one of the adults in the house had been nominated to supervise, this could have been avoided

clearly these kids need more guidance on how to play together

It's not an inclusion issue, or a SN issue, or anywhere this debate seems to have gone

It's just basic supervision of young kids

Deviantenigma nobody is criticising the way you parent.Why do you think it is ignorant of me to say that being in a class with a child with severe challenging behaviour doesn't impinge on the happiness and education of other children ?

Bonkerz - very sad story for everyone concerned God why can't there be an iota of common sense in any governement agency !

Hi Katiestar, I didn't mean you were critising my parenting, just giving an offer to see what a day in the life of a severly challenging child/children is like.
I was really only trying to help difuse some of the feeling having a child with a disability brings which I felt in the posts that people thought you were not empathetic towards SN.
It is ignorant in the way you have stated the fact the other children in the class suffer, however it has looked like you have dicriminated against disability by doing this. IYSWIM.
I felt there was a lot of feelings around the posts that you had little experience of SN and that was one of the reasons why I post what I did.
I would like to know where and what you are basing your experience of children suffering due to a SN child then maybe others and myself may be able to comment further.
In my opinion a child would only be disrupting a class if the child is not coping for whatever reason. That maybe boredom, noise, crowd, etc the list would go on and all avenues would need to be assessed.HTH