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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to be annoyed at my sisters attitude towards her daughters behaviour?

63 replies

5inthebed · 17/06/2009 21:46

Today after school, me and the DS's went to my mams (who had collected my 5 year old neice from school as well). My sister (DN's mam) was there when we got there. The kids went to go play in their toy room come bedroom that my mam has there for them. As usual DS2 (3) and DN were winding each other up, DS2 has SN and thinks its funny as he gets a reaction out of DN. I always try and tell him its wrong and not to do it, and usually he is good once he gets over the excitement. DN does sometimes go out her way to get DS2 to wind her up (lies on the floor so he jumps on her, smacks him then runs away, pretends to cry)

Anyway, DS2 starts screaming in pain, and all I can hear is DN saying "I didn't mean it" and then starting to cry hysterically herself. DS2 comes through really crying his heart out followed by DS1, who tells me that DN has bit DS2. Sure enough on DS2's back there is a very nasty bite mark, all purple and you can see about 6 teeth marks from both top and bottom teeth.

While I'm trying to calm Ds2 down, DN runs in all upset and instead of my sister telling her off, she gets a big huge cuddle and told "There, there. It's ok"

No its not bloody ok! She is 5 years old and has just bit my DS2!

After a few word with each other, its clear that she thinks it was probably just what Ds2 deserved, as he is always winding DN up. Now DS3 might be an annoying little boy, but he has never marked her by biting/nipping smacking her!

AIBU to think that my sister could have at least told DN that it was wrong to bite and that by cuddling her it's showing her otherwise?

OP posts:
katiestar · 18/06/2009 15:02

I ask again.What was your DN's version of events ?
It is NEVER right to tell a child off without knowing their version of events first.

bubblagirl · 18/06/2009 16:17

i think if biting is involved and the child has sn and is 2 yrs younger then telling them to at least say sorry would be worth it if not punishing

if the other children was older and more aware of there actions then ok it can be classed as 2 children winding each other up a 3 yr old doesn't really mean to wind others up especially a 3yr old with sn

a chat should be had with biter saying its not nice if they cannot handle being a round said child walk away don't bit them he is a toddler she is not

katiestar · 18/06/2009 17:19

Bubblagirl- what tosh !
I see so many undisciplined special needs kids who constantly hit,kick,push over, throw things at other kids.Destroy their artwork, their games etc.There is a limit to what anyone could take.A 5yr old is not an adult why should she be expected to make allowances for his 'special needs'.TBH I think the OP saying the DN 'wound her DS up by lying on the floor ' as an excuse for him jumping on her is very telling.Maybe this short sharp shock will make him think twice next time !

pagwatch · 18/06/2009 17:36

Well tbh my son has SN and at the age of 12 I still oversee his play. He does not het social clues and can get himself and other wound up very easily. I do not expect other children to be mature enough to make allowances for him and I do not expect him to be able to respond within normal acceptable levels to them .
It is not his fault. It is not other childrens fault. It is however my responsibility to,tedious as it is, when he is around other children who are not truly understanding of his behaviours, then I don't leave hoim alone.
I sit in a corner with a cup of tea and I over see everything as discreetly as I can. Consequently the number of situtaions he can cope with is still expanding and the number of children he can play with without my help is also increasing.
Katie - if a child has the same SN as my son he has no intention to do anyone any harm at all. His actions may be destructive ( although actually they are not - he wouldn't touch other peoples stuff and he wouldn't hurt a fly) but his intent would not be mean

pagwatch · 18/06/2009 17:39

well that didn't make any sense

my point is if one child has sn and the other is only five then it doesn't matter who does what. They should not be left alone and out of sight.
The situation is notthe fault of the sister. It is the fault of the parents in attendance ( the OP and her sister)

bubblagirl · 18/06/2009 17:39

well clearly we parent differently doesn't make it tosh imho i dont think biting is acceptable regardless and alot of children with sn are not undisciplined they have no control over there actions and this can be affected by environment etc

i dont agree with any child biting another if little boy was bitten on his back he she was clearly behind him and could of walked away 5 is old enough to know right or wrong if child was at scholl would not be acceptable to bite another child so why at home

but we would probably never agree on this but because we parent differently etc doesn't give you right to say its tosh and you may want to educate yourself on sn as well as not all children are naughty who have sn it cannot be helped

bubblagirl · 18/06/2009 17:41

i agree that they need to be watched more though and not left alone but still not acceptable and a sorry could have been given

TotalChaos · 18/06/2009 17:43

I can see both sides to this. as on the one hand, a 5 year old should be told that biting is not acceptable. But on the other hand it does sound as if the play/winding up between the two children is getting way out of hand from your description, and needs careful monitoring to nip trouble in the bud before things get physical.

traceybath · 18/06/2009 17:45

I would expect a 5 year old to be reprimanded for biting.

Ds1 was recently bitten by a 5 year old at school and i was quite shocked - i thought this phase had largely passed by this stage.

I think it is that biting just seems so much more aggressive than pushing or hitting.

Do agree though that a 3 year old with SN needs supervised play.

Hope you manage to amicably resolve things with your sister.

katiestar · 18/06/2009 17:50

could they bring some toys downstairs to play with so that you could watch them

Original poster
5inthebed · 18/06/2009 17:58

Katiestar do you have any DC with SN? Your comments are a bit naive.

My DS2 has ASD, and whenever someone lies on the floor, he automatically sits on them and jumps up and down. DN knows this yet she still does it infront of him and allows him to jump on her even though she knows he isn't allowed to do this. and try as I might to get DS2 out of this habit, he just doesn't understand that it is wrong or that it hurts people. I don't expect my DN to make "allowances" because my DS2 has SN.

My DS2 is as disciplined as my DS1, I make no allowances for his SN.

The issue was not the behaviour of my DS2 and my DN, but how my sister didn't feel the need to tell her daughter off or even tell her that it is wrong to bite (and yes, DN has been a biter since she had teeth and has never been told not to do it).

OP posts:
spicemonster · 18/06/2009 18:36

Oh dear. I think biting is awful (and loads of nurseries exclude children for doing it - wrongly IMO - that I can't imagine a school looks on it favourably) and really needs to be nipped in the bud early on if possible, which is sounds like your sister hasn't done. BUT she's a very young girl and bouncing on her isn't very nice. But that doesn't excuse biting.

I wonder if your sister thinks that her DD should react when your DS sits on her which is why she didn't give her a hard time about it? That's a bit crap but your sister sounds like a bit of an arse tbh!

I wouldn't let them play alone together until they're both a bit older. Oh and YANBU

Original poster
5inthebed · 18/06/2009 18:41

Just re-read this post, and should add that my mam lives in a flat, so the room they are playing in isn't far from the living room.

I totally agree that my son shouldn't jump on my DN, we are trying to get him to stop this. It isn't just her he does it to, but anyone lying on the floor. DN does react when he does this, she laughs at first but then DS" just gets over-enthusiastic and she ends up screaming and crying. Its because he gets a reaction out of people that he does it.

Anyway, I shouldn't be defending or explaining my DS2's behaviour. That is not the topic of this post.

I do think my sister needs to try stop her daughter from biting and that she does need to tell her things like that are wrong. But I know for a fact she wont.

OP posts:
spicemonster · 18/06/2009 18:47

My DS jumps on anyone who lies on the floor too (he's 2) so I totally understand! Drives me bloody potty but I would be furious if anyone bit him for doing that unless they were a) SN or b) 3 or younger. Five is way, way too old to be biting other children.

aristocat · 18/06/2009 18:53

YANBU biting can not be allowed whether SN or not.
Hope you can make amends with your sister and work it out together.

slowreadingprogress · 18/06/2009 19:13

yes the little girl should have been told not to bite, but kids of these ages and with the needs described, need to be supervised in their play

far far more kind all round to intervene before things get to this stage, tho of course harder work for the adults.

katiestar · 18/06/2009 21:24

Genuine question here.Not getting at anyone.If a child with say ASD can't help but hurt other kids , if it is truly beyond his control , then why are they allowed in mainstream schools to endanger other children ? In these days when health and safety means our kids can't climb trees at school,can't playfottie without the right boots , why is it OK for them to be cooped up with someone who cannot be stopped from hurting them ?

northernmonkey · 18/06/2009 21:51

katiestar do you have a child with sn???
Why shouldn't a child with sn go to a mainstream school. To 'coop' a sn child up with other children is probably the best thing for them. It teaches them the vital social skills that they need to go on in life. All schools have extra support in place for sn children to avoid hurting other children and put measures in place, also schools often get much more funding so you would find overall this benefits all children at that school sn or no sn

cheapskatemum · 18/06/2009 21:51

Katiestar - I don't feel qualified to answer for children with other disabilities, but I have an MEd in Children's Autism and it is not correct that children with ASD "cannot be stopped from hurting (other children)". Their challenging behaviour can be difficult to change, but it can and obviously should be done.

2shoes · 18/06/2009 21:54

it is called inclusion, imo it is mainly done as it is cheaper for the LEA. but it is also good for the young people with sn as they learn by their peers, it is also supposed to make society more accepting.

piscesmoon · 18/06/2009 22:00

If they are in mainstream school and are likely to hurt others then they would have a statement and a delegated TA, or a school with a special unit-the aim being to integrate them with others. I went to look at a possible job in a primary school with a special unit and they were doing great work. They worked with the DCs in the morning and in the afternoon the DC went into the 'normal' class with support. It is hard work, but of course it can be changed. You don't write off the ASD child and say he can't mix with other DCs.

katiestar · 18/06/2009 22:22

Ok I didn't mean to offend anyone and I can see the benefit for SN children.But what I cannot accept is seeing a class full of other children continually disrupted ,hurt and frightened.

Widemouthfrog · 18/06/2009 22:33

A properly supported ASD child in school will not disrupt, hurt or frighten other children,any more than a child without special needs. If this is happening then it is not the fault of the SN child, but a failure of the school to recognise and meet that childs needs.
Kids with SN represent the diversity of our society, ansd all our children benefit from their inclusion.

piscesmoon · 18/06/2009 22:38

A good school couldn't allow that katiestar-they get support. Every DC has to be safe at school.

nicolamumof3 · 18/06/2009 22:48

5in the way your sister dealt with her dd biting was totally unacceptable regardless of any other circumstances to bite a child is wrong and at 5yrs old she knows this and should have been reprimanded, what would happen if she did this to a peer at school?

My ds3 is a biter, he is 23m and will grow out of it as my other ds' have however i would never tolerate his biting or condone his behaviour.

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