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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Plumber quoted us vat-free

78 replies

cornflakegirl · 11/06/2009 09:50

We've just had our bathroom redone. We got several quotes - the lowest could also do it the soonest, so we went with him. We are pleased with the work. However, he just spoke to DH about payment, and asked if we wanted to pay VAT. Was very surprised when he said yes. DH just told me that the initial quote was verbal (I gently pointed out that in future it was important to get all quotes in writing!), so I'm pretty sure that we're going to end up paying 15% more than we were originally quoted.

It's still a fair price, so we would have used the guy anyway - but I'm really annoyed that he thought this was acceptable behaviour. Should I try to negotiate a discount on the grounds that his original quote wasn't legit? Should I report him to HMRC?

OP posts:

lowrib · 11/06/2009 10:37

Let me get this right - this guy gave a reasonable quote and did a good job at short notice, and you want to repay him by scrutinising his business affairs and accusing him of being on the fiddle? Nice one

You should put it down to experience and move on.

crokky · 11/06/2009 10:39

cornflakegirl

"I still really don't want to turn a blind eye to his proposed tax evasion though"

Well, cornflakegirl, I think you should turn a blind eye to it. It sounds like he was offering you a chance to save a bit of money, human being to human being. I'm not sure why you are getting so worried about the taxman missing out on a bit of revenue. Far worse things happen. He's done you a lovely bathroom (you are very lucky) and you should pay the bill, with or without VAT, as you see fit and move on. Quite honestly, I'm sure this man is just trying to feed his family and he was offering you a chance to save a bit of money so you could do the same. I think it would be terrible of you to report him - he could lose his business - you sound like a rule obsessed busybody - just live and let live.

Enjoy your bathroom.

thedolly · 11/06/2009 10:45

He is 'on the fiddle' for sure if you are prepared to collude. As you appear not to be then pay the VAT and make sure you get all necessary receipts.

I'm not sure how he benefits by being 'on the fiddle' though - anyone care to enlighten me?

Original poster

cornflakegirl · 11/06/2009 10:46

SouthMum - don't worry, your brain will recover!

Bramshott - it is actually - never had any work like this done before. Obviously I knew such things happened.

OP posts:

2rebecca · 11/06/2009 10:50

Most quotes I've had from builders/ roffers/plumbers have clearly stated exclusive of VAT, only a minority round here include it.
I've never had anyone let me get away without paying it though.

Original poster

cornflakegirl · 11/06/2009 10:53

hannahsaunt - if he wasn't VAT registered, then he couldn't have offered us the opportunity not the pay the VAT - the question just wouldn't have arisen.

lowrib - I want to repay him for the good job by paying him a fair amount. I don't think that doing a good job excuses defrauding the taxman.

crokky - I'm worried about the taxman missing out on a bit of revenue because quite frankly he needs all the revenue he can get at the moment! Tax evasion means that the rest of us have to pay more - or get a lower level of public services. It's important.

thedolly - he doesn't gain from me not paying VAT. However, if he doesn't invoice me, and I pay in cash, then he doesn't have to put it through his books - thereby avoiding income tax / corporation tax (depending on whether he's a sole trader or a ltd co). I don't know whether he was planning to do this though - as crokky said, he may have just been offering to do us a favour.

OP posts:

thedolly · 11/06/2009 11:04

cornflake girl I think it amounts to the same think - him doing you a favour/tax evasion, everyone benefits (apart from the taxman)

thedolly · 11/06/2009 11:10

It may be worth keeping it legit in case there is a problem with the work that hasn't manifest itself yet - if you accept his 'favour' you are waiving your rights to a certain extent as there will be no proof that the work was actually done and paid for.

Stigaloid · 11/06/2009 11:11

Unless you have it in writing his offering for you to pay cash with no VAT then you have no case to stand on. Don't be so vindictive. Pay the bill with VAT on top so your 15% goes to tax revenue and move on.

FWIW - whenever i get a quote i am always assuming it is exclusive of VAT unless it states inclusive of. That goes for everything from restaurant meals to hotel stays to work done on my home.

lal123 · 11/06/2009 11:15

thedolly - and all of us who have to pay more tax/cope with reduced services as a result of tax evaders.

The other thing of course is that if anything is wrong with the work done and you've paid cash and no VAT then there's not much you can do about it as you can't really prove that the service was delivered

CinnabarRed · 11/06/2009 11:16

Cornflake girl - is it possible that he's below the turnover threshhold so is not obliged to register for VAT (can't remember it exactly, think it's around £70k of turnover per annum)? If he's earning less than the threshhold then he might be trying to decide whether to voluntarily register - the advantage to him of this would be that he could reclaim VAT he's suffered on business expenditure if he's VAT registered; downside would be that he'd then have to charge VAT to his customers.

Not sure how likely this is, but thought it worth adding to the mix (I'm a tax adviser).

timmette · 11/06/2009 11:19

Just pay the vat and that's the end of it.. everyone who has ever quoted us from car repairs to house stuff has also quoted exclusive of vat - we do pay it.
But no need to report him.

TheYearOfTheCat · 11/06/2009 11:24

Someone else said it, and it is worth repeating - IME, if I find a reliable, friendly, efficient and reasonable to pay tradesman, I do everything in my power to make them my new best friend.

Short of marrying them. Only because I am married already.

I really wouldn't give a second's thought as to whether they are Vat registered or not.

I appreciate the issue of if someone doesn't pay tax, then we all pay more, but when I think of the billions that are 'avoided' by the rich and wealthy in this country, your bathroom pales into insignificance. If this government was able to demonstrate that they were using our tax £££££s sensibly, I would also be more inclined to care.

crokky · 11/06/2009 11:24

cornflakegirl - I do understand the situation - I am also an accountant (although I'm at home with a baby and toddler at the moment).

I still feel that it would be terrible if you reported him. You are looking at things from a very theoretical point of view and missing the fact that this man does a good job and sounds like a decent person. Any money he has not paid in tax will probably be pumped back into the economy by him purchasing goods.

You taking a stand against one individual will not make a difference overall. In my opinion, most people would not report this so I don't think it is valid to suggest that we are all going to report every instance of this behaviour that we suspect and the off book transactions will therefore be eradicated.

If you report this man, he may lose his business. The taxman will not be helped overall - to do this requires a change in the system, not single person reports like you are proposing. In fact the taxman will be worse off if this person loses his business.

thedolly · 11/06/2009 11:33

lal123 I think you and I are saying the same thing - my 'everyone' was in reference to those involved with this particular situation and in response to the OP saying that perhaps the plumber was doing her a favour.

PuppyMonkey · 11/06/2009 11:44

Agree with Crokky. Poor bloke. I think he was only trying to do you a favour and now he'll be kicking himself for "picking the wrong couple" to "offer a discount."

Yes he was a bit naughty, but he did you a good job. Just turn a blind eye to his little indiscretion fgs.

thedolly · 11/06/2009 11:54

I hope all the people on this thread who are happy to turn a blind eye aren't the same ones who were outraged at the MP's and their expenses.

Original poster

cornflakegirl · 11/06/2009 11:56

Stigaloid - I agree that the HMRC probably can't take any action on the basis of a verbal offer that could have been misconstrued (not that I think for a moment it was).

I'm not being vindictive though. I have nothing against this guy as a person (except possibly his dodgy taste in music). But it annoys me like dog poo in the park - a whole bunch of individual people making the world that little bit shittier.

CinnabarRed - valid point. However, I can't imagine that he is basing his decision of whether to register on whether my DH wants to pay VAT on this one smallish invoice... Kudos to your for your charitable and uncynical thoughts though!

Cat - he wasn't that efficient - managed to spread about 5 days' work over the best part of two weeks. But I take your point. However, I don't think that the fact that the very rich go to extreme lengths to avoid tax excuses the middle classes blatantly evading it. If we all choose not to care until the system is perfect, it will just get worse.

crokky - I agree with you, I'm looking at this theoretically. And I don't want to put this man out of business. And I know that HMRC know that this happens all the time, and that there's a good chance they won't do anything even if I tell them. But saying that we need him to keep earning so he can pay other taxes doesn't really work - you could use the same argument for someone committing benefit fraud. And a lot of people on here would have no problems with reporting that. So why is this so different?

OP posts:

islandofsodor · 11/06/2009 12:02

All our quotes are net (exclusive of VAT) for all custimers.

As has been previously stated some new builds/listed building etc don;t have to pay VAT. Also any work covered under Warm Front Grant only pays 6% VAT.

Our system would be really mixed up if we had to keep track of quoting different people (business, domestic, non vat registerd etc) different rates so it is all net and the VAT invoiced at the appropriate rates when the work is done.

LadyOfWaffle · 11/06/2009 12:03

Totally agree with Crokky

kitsmummy · 11/06/2009 12:04

Wow, I'm obviously the only one who would gladly accept his nice vat-less offer [shields herself in readiness]

Original poster

cornflakegirl · 11/06/2009 12:09

islandofsodor - we've never had work done before. I'm quite happy that I was wrong to assume all quotes would include VAT - it's clearly not universal practice. So we'll suck that one up.

OP posts:

islandofsodor · 11/06/2009 12:13

We do state nett on our paperwork though. However it can be easy for small what we call daywork jobs to forget and assume the customer knows. Our engineers have to remind themselves to say plus VAT when doing verbal stuff to domestic customers.

I remember being cuaght out myself years ago with estate agents fees. I nevr realised they were nett.

Original poster

cornflakegirl · 11/06/2009 12:14

Poll question to everyone who doesn't think I should report him (so that would be, errr, everyone):

Do you think benefit fraud is wrong? Would you report it?

OP posts:

gerontius · 11/06/2009 12:16

Presumably if this guy is offering cornflakegirl "vat-free" he's offering everybody else it. So that's a hefty chunk not being paid in tax.

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