Plumber quoted us vat-free

[cornflakegirl]

We've just had our bathroom redone. We got several quotes - the lowest could also do it the soonest, so we went with him. We are pleased with the work. However, he just spoke to DH about payment, and asked if we wanted to pay VAT. Was very surprised when he said yes. DH just told me that the initial quote was verbal (I gently pointed out that in future it was important to get all quotes in writing!), so I'm pretty sure that we're going to end up paying 15% more than we were originally quoted.

It's still a fair price, so we would have used the guy anyway - but I'm really annoyed that he thought this was acceptable behaviour. Should I try to negotiate a discount on the grounds that his original quote wasn't legit? Should I report him to HMRC?

[timmette]

OP - you are trying to start an argument.
Many trades people quote without VAT - the solution is to ask for an invoice with VAT and pay it.
Many people are facing very difficult financial times at the moment especially those who are self employed or have small companies - and you don't know what his motive was - it's very easy to make assumptions.

[kitsmummy]

yes think it's wrong, might report it, but somehow it seems totally different to what this plumber is doing

[Bramshott]

I would imagine that there are probably a lot of tradespeople who do 80% of their work through the books, but where it's a small job, not taking much time or needing much equipment/materials, they offer the customer the option to pay in cash.

Cornflakegirl - I hope you've never paid a babysitter in cash, or passed on your parking ticket to someone else when there's time left on it etc !

[thedolly]

I'm not the whistleblowing kind - people in glass houses and all that

[cornflakegirl]

timmette - no, just a debate. I want to know whether people who would pay the VAT actually think it's acceptable for him to make the offer, or just prefer not to cast the first stone.

kitsmummy - why is it different?

Bramshott - it wasn't that small a job - him and a tiler for probably 4/5 days each.

I do indeed pay my babysitter in cash. And feel slightly guilty about it. Don't feel at all guilty about passing on my parking ticket though - I've paid for that time!

[cornflakegirl]

thedolly - think that's probably the strongest argument against reporting him!

[oliverboliverbutt]

OP said 'Cat - he wasn't that efficient - managed to spread about 5 days' work over the best part of two weeks.'

This really pisses me off.
How on earth do you know re-doing a bathroom takes 5 days? Are you a builder? No, you're an effing accountant!

My husband is a designer/builder and does all work from start to finish and I can tell you the biggest problem he faces are people like the OP who think they know how long something should take.
These bloody renovation programs that don't show you all the time, problems and ££ that goes into the finished product have warped people to think they are all 'experts'.

If he came to work everyday and finished the job and you are happy with the end result then that should be the end of it.
Now you talk about reporting him.
sheesh, what's your real name so I can warn my DH about you.

[oliverboliverbutt]

and you yourself just admitted it wasn't a small job. So don't complain if a job you think should take 5 days (even if he quotes 5 days, there is such a thing as unforseen issues) ends up taking 10.

[cornflakegirl]

oliver - you misunderstand me. I'm not bothered about the actual number of hours that it's taken - just the fact that he pops off in the middle of the day / leaves early / decides not to work a particular day, so that 4 or 5 days of actual work are spread over 10 working days. It's a long time to have restricted use of your only bathroom!

[timmette]

But in your original post you said he did a good job and you were pleased with his work?

[cornflakegirl]

He did a good job - it all looks lovely. He just seemed to change his mind a fair bit about what he was doing when, and which days he was working. Possibly with very good reasons. But he just didn't exude an air of efficiency. It was a minor thing. We didn't complain to him about it, just went along with whatever he said he wanted to do.

[springlamb]

It's a little odd that VAT wasn't mentioned until he'd done the work.
I'd imagine that in today's economic climate, the addition (or not) of VAT onto a price could be a deal-breaker in some cases. If I were on the swizz, I'd be making it clear from the outset that the VAT element was negotiable to up my chances of getting the job in the first place.
Are you sure he didn't perhaps think that you had someone registered disabled in the house. If the bathroom had been modified (such as walk-in shower) and done up for their use it would be VAT-exempt.
Sure he doesn't have two businesses running - one VAT registered, one not?
Lots of our customers ask for prices 'for cash'. What they mean is off the books VAT free. We point to the large sign on the wall saying 'With effect from 1 July 2008 XXX is registered with HM Revenue & Customs for the purposes of VAT. Our VAT number is xxx. VAT must be charged on all invoices. This is not negotiable.'

[springlamb]

BTW, no I wouldn't report him.
You just can't tell when the toilet will get blocked and you have shit all over the floor, and he's the only one available to sort it.

[PuppyMonkey]

Good point springlamb

[clumsymum]

If he's VAT registered then EVERY customer should pay the VAT, It's simply that a business would claim it back on their own VAT return.

I suspect he was trying to suggest that if you paid cash, you could pay less, as he wouldn't declare the earnings for VAT or tax.

So in your shoes I think you should pay the amount he quoted. A tradesman quoting a private householder should quote inclusive of VAT.

[cornflakegirl]

springlamb - it was a normal family bathroom. Hadn't considered the possibility of two businesses. Presumably the taxman would frown on splitting your business into two to stay below the VAT registration limit?

Fair point on the toilet though!

[islandofsodor]

Yes, the tax man would.

For ecample my dh runs a VAT exempt business, however he has to keep a careful record of any potentially VATAble stuff he does in several other freelance jobs as they coult it all together when determining whether you are over the threshold.

[springlamb]

No idea if it would be frowned upon to be a partner in two businesses, one VAT reg other not.
As you can probably tell from the sign on our workshop wall, DH and I are total wusses when it comes to 'creative accounting'. We live in fear of HM Inspectors coming to call. We are partners so if we both went to prison the poor dc would have to live with MIL. That is enough to keep us on the straight and narrow.
[Returns to doing the VAT return which is due in by the end of the month].
Sodor, being on the cusp is a nightmare! Which was further complicated by me believing that as long as we didn't go over the threshold in a business year we were OK. Of course, it's the last twelve months turnover that counts, not the business year, as I found out two days late. Told you we were wusses.

[lowrib]

I would not report benefit fraud, it's none of my business how other people live their lives.

[clumsymum]

lowrib There is a school of thought which says that it IS your business (all of our business) if someone is evading tax, as they are not paying their contribution to society, and that affects other's benefits/tax credits/subsidies to the arts/money paid to the NHS etc etc etc.

Not saying whether I agree or not ...

[clumsymum]

Oh, and you can't run (or be a partner in) two seperate businesses which carry out the same work, one Vat registered and one not. HMRC would see that as a definate attempt to avoid paying VAT.

I believe you can have 2 seperate businesses, involved in different business activities, and have one of those registered for VAT, the other not.

[lowrib]

clumsymum I understand the argument, it's just I've known a couple of people who have done (occasional off the cards work). It's all very well to say it's wrong when you talk about it theoretically, but thinking of one of them in particular, knowing her personal circumstances she's had a terrible time (I won't go into all the details here) and is doing brilliantly to be the fantastic mum she is.

If she declared the money she gets for VERY occasional work it would wreck her claim and not make it worth doing at all.

I know it's not within the law, but it makes life better for her and her son. Perhaps the law here isn't just?

I would be livid if some interfering so and so reported her and it lead to terrible consequences for her and her son. She is doing the best with the terrible hand she has been dealt.

I think what I'm really trying to say is that on the surface things can seem clear cut, but unless you really know the circumstances of the person involved then I don't think it's fair to judge, well not to the point of making potentially life changing decisions on their behalf and informing the authorities, when it's just possible that if you knew the full story you might not be so eager. One you've reported someone you can't un-say it.

Just because something's legal it isn't always the just or right thing to do.

I hope that make sense. Sorry to rant!

[clumsymum]

"Perhaps the law here isn't just?"

Ah now that is a whole different discussion. There are many examples in our society where the law and justice don't always add up to the same thing.

However.....

Thing is, if the OP (or her husband) worked for HMRC, then they would be wrong NOT to report the plumber, knowing how he is minded to work.

[cornflakegirl]

lowrib - I agree wholeheartedly with your post. But I kind of feel that tradesmen offering off-book payment is akin to people who brag about how they're making fraudulent benefit claims. Like it's something acceptable, something to be proud of. Not something you feel you have to do to get by.

[katiestar]

The tradesman isn't making anything for himself by doing it without VAT is he ? He is putting himself at risk to save you bucks and you STILL complain.Jeez !