To leave my £80 of shopping for the checkout assistant to put away

[mummytopebs]

Was in supermarket doing my shopping got to the till, had £80 worth of shopping in this was 4 cans of john smiths for dh. The drink was at the end of the shopping so everything had gone through, the checkout lady asked for id (I am 29 but do look young but not that young and god its 4 cans of beer with a full shop not some chavvy drink) I said i did not have any on me but i used to work in the said supermarket so said can you call my old manager who will verify my age. She tutted at me and called the line manager who i used to work for, she said yes she is definitly over age it was 6 years when i worked there and i was definitly over 18 then. The jobsworth sorry checkout lady still looked at me distastefully and the manager said it is up to the checkout lady though cos she originally akked for the id. I said can i have it then and she looked at me and went nah !!!!!!!! I said are you joking and hse said no i dont think you are over age!!!!!! So i said well i'll leave it then and she said ok and put the beer down and said thats £80.71p and i said no i will leave the lot - grabbed my dd and flounced out of the shop with an air of triumph.

I dont care if i had been shopping for an hour, i used to work in that supermarket and know she will have to put it all away ha ha ha

The other thing I don't understand about this is whether the individual cashier actually is the licensee for the purposes of selling the alcohol, and whether if they did, they would be personally liable or if their it would be their store manager (who presumably is officially the off-licensee). Have any cashiers actually been fined the large amount, or are they more likely to incur the wrath of their line manager and potentially, internal disciplinary action, whilst their employer bears the brunt of the fine and court action? Are individual cashiers personally liable in law, or merely in store practise?

omfg.

the store will have a premises license, which will have whatever licensing rules their licensing authority (the council) set.

the premises will also have a designated premises supervisor. it's basically their name above the door. they will have a personal license for which they will have passed an exam all about licensing law. if the place is large ie a supermarket there will be lots of other personal licence holders ie most of the managers. they then 'authorise' all the staff to sell alcohol. this 'authorisation' is basically a list of names and signatures saying they've all been trained and are personally liable for any age restricted sales they consent to.

most retailers subscribe to challenge 25 as it's an easy way to show due diligence in upholding the licensing objectives.

IT IS NOT a legal requirement to carry id BUT a shop ALWAYS has the right to refuse a sale.

the shop would not be prosecuted for selling to a 29 year old without id (or whatever example someone gave) but COULD get in trouble for not following challenge 25 ie showing due diligence.

Why omfg Norah? What is wrong with wanting to know exactly what the legislation or not is? If I am told something, or refused something, then I want to know exactly where I and the other person stand in law. If the law is inconsistent as it seems to be in this case with differing councils according to you setting different rules, then how is the consumer supposed to know what those rules are for different areas?

Yes, it's a shitty system, and I'm sorry for the cashiers, but please remember that if the consumer didn't buy alcohol, or patronise your establishment for other groceries, then the profits of your employer would fall, and redundancies could be made. It only takes one bad experience for someone not to use a shop again, and at the moment, I would have thought that the shops would be pleased to have customers.

The system needs to be crystal clear right across the UK so that there are no misunderstandings. That is obviously not the case at the moment, so we are trying to establish what the law is, as opposed to what the retailers decide to do, and if what the retailers are doing actually has the force of law. If not, then one could argue that they are being discriminatory in not selling to people because of their appearance or inability to drive, or that they have no ID, which is not a legal requirement in the UK.

Perhaps you'd like to point out to your employers that the system isn't working, and how they could ameliorate it, so that Joe Public can understand it clearly.

yes, individual cashiers are liable by law, and the person in the store with their licence will get a strike against their licence.

Some posters keeps saying that it is the supermarket rules, not the law.

No, it is not the law to carry id. you are right about this.

However it IS the law to prove yourself over 18 if you attempt to buy alcohol.

for those that dont drive/or have passport. get a proof of age card.

why do so many people have a problem with this???

i've explained it about 5 times on this thread.

I think it's entirely relevant, because if the individual cashier is not going to personally liable in a court of law, but is merely acting as an agent for the licensee, who is responsible for the alcohol sales in his or her shop, then if cashiers are under hte impression that they are personally liable to the maximum fine imposed under the legislation, then they are being misled by their employer. Feeling so vulnerable is more likely to make cashiers make cautious decisions that upset customers. We are not living in Soviet Russia and people are free to shop elsewhere if they feel pissed off.

I'm all for empowering people to make common sense decisions, but if the power is actually a threat, then they are being unfairly pressurised, which I feel very uncomfortable about. My question was more about this particular case. Presumably the manager the OP called over was also the licensee. If he/she knew that the OP was over 18, then they could easily have overridden the cashier. If necessary, they could have rung the alcohol through the till themselves. It seems that the manager actually either passed the buck (unnecessarily, since they could vouch for the fact that OP was over 18) to the cashier, or decided to use the situation as a testing exercise.

it isn't discriminatory to ask a customer to prove they are old enough to buy an age restricted item. the retailer will put in the most stringent system they can, challenge 25 being very suitable, and some what prefereable to aksing every single customer for id. however, some stores DO have conditions on their licence where they do have to ask every customer for id. these are stores normally which have had several fines or even have had to stop selling alcohol due to not showing due diligence.

the person selling the alcohol ie carrying out the transaction can be issued with an on the spot fine of £80. a bigger fine can then be issued to the license holder and designated premises supervisor.

the fine IS there to make the cashier cautious. same as any fine for breaking any law.

Either I look so bloody haggard there is no room for debate about me being over 18, or it is because common sense and a customer service ethic prevails in Waitrose...but I've never been challenged about my purchases of alcohol.....Quite disappointed actually

It is NOT the law to have to prove you are over 18 if you attempt to buy alcoholin the UK. I have been buying alcohol for 25 years without having to prove I am over 18. If it were the case that one had to prove it, then we all would queue up in the supermarkets with our ID at the ready. We don't, ergo it is not the law of the land. One can legally buy alcohol at 18 without having to prove your age.

Licensing laws are different, as RN has said from council to council. Those laws are binding on the licencee, not the public.

Why should people who are evidently over 18 have to buy a proof of age card to satisfy a retail scheme which the shops operate, but is not UK law?

And how is the customer supposed to know which shops operate which policy? I have yet to see in Tesco a sign that says we will not sell you alcohol if you are with your teenager because we think you might be buying it for him.

The system is laughable when you get a 65 year old asked to prove how old she is in Morrisons when she wants to buy a bottle of Baileys. It is evident that she is over both 21 and 25.

The system HAS to be made crystal clear so that everyone can understand what is going on, and can then chose to go to Waitrose or an off-licence where they will be treated like an adult instead.

FFS scaryteacher just deal with the fact that if you want alcohol you might need id as you might get asked for it. A shop has the right to refuse sales of alcohol to anyone. its simple really.

it's really not so complicated. a shop has to be satisfied that the customer is over 18. they will do whatever they need to do to be assured of that. challenge 25 is effective.

the policy is displayed in every shop that applies it.

the variations are not vastly different council to council. the obvious main standard, which is law, is that alcohol must not be sold to under 18s. the council would be pleased to see each every retailer sign up to challenge 25 as this shows due diligence.

an excellent way to satisfy trading standards auditors is to show them your challenge 25 refusal book. in there you will have all the times you've refused to serve someone. they like this.

the variations will be things about protecting children. so one council may have variations to another regarding stock layout in proximity to kids merchandise etc. or they may say no alcohol adverts in the windows..or whatever.

you are right, you do not HAVE to prove you are over 18. but you may not get served if the shop is not satisfied that you aren't.

plus im im not gonna get a £2500 fine for you or anyone, so if you look young I would id you and if you hadnt got it i would refuse you.

Trikken, as I understand it, you would not be liable to the £2500 fine unless you are the licensee. If your employer has led to believe that, they are probably misleading you.

And jees, from the tone those of you who work in shops have adopted vs those of us with very legitimate annoyance at being flatly refused in the face of all common sense, anybody would think you were selling a Class A classified drug. Whilst there may be an entire debate in that, the fact is that alcohol is not a controlled substance, and adults over the age of 18 are free to buy it in any outlet. It's not a privilege, it's just another product like over chips or avocados.

no we've seen in-store films and training that you can be fined yorself, not just the store.

As you say ruddynorah "most retailers subscribe to challenge 25 as it's an easy way to show due diligence in upholding the licensing objectives."

Yep, you said it, it's all about making it easy for retailers. It's not the law, it's covering their backs and salving their conscience. They should be empowering people to use common sense. I've heard of plenty of stories of people over forty being refused alcohol without ID. Likewise it's bonkers to refuse to sell adults age-restricted stuff because they are with their children.

Why should people leave their children at home when they buy a bottle of wine, blades for their stanley knife or want to buy an 18 movie?

Of course no retailer has to sell you anything but equally no shopper has to buy anything at a shop which treats them with contempt.

You are not required to have ID in this country. I signed this long ago.

they are not free to buy it.

the shop is free to sell it in accordance with their licence. there is a difference.

it is not like buying chips.

off out for lunch now..am sure this will still be raging when i return

not required to, but how else can a shop make sure that they are doing the best to protect themselves and stop under-age drinking?

FFS Trikken - it's really simple to shop elsewhere as well.

The retailers are pushing consumers to have ID when they are not obliged by the law of the land to have it to purchase alcohol, as you are able to drink and purchase alcohol legally at 18.

If the retailers want the law changed, then why don't they openly lobby for that in an upfront and honest fashion, rather than by trying to introduce it by the back door? I could try to buy alcohol in Liverpool and get ID'd, but not in Cornwall. There is no set standard here between retailers or councils, and there needs to buy. If UK citizens are confused by this, then I pity the poor tourists who come to UK on holiday and get refused alcohol as they don't know the ins and outs of the local licensing laws before they get there. Piss too many of them off, and the UK loses money and market share.

um yes..as i said..again.

if you were a manager how would you protect your staff?

I think you'll find most places have these rules in place. id prefer to shop in a store thats gonna protect their staff and their customers.