To think that animals do have souls........

[milou2]

even though Xenia says they don't. Discuss!

well put evenbetadad - gosh didn't I compliment you on a thread last night too? There must be something that connects the physical to the consciousness.

The consciousness could be physical. My computer makes decisions all the time. Moral decisions are just decisions after all.

ha!

"There must be something that connects the physical to the consciousness."

But what does that mean?

Are you really asking or just being rude?

I mean the glue that binds your body to the mind, that which animates your physical being, the light that goes out when you die.

And if you were just asking then I apologise for being snappy, bad day.

hem hem. I am asking a question, seriously and genuinely.

and - just being honest, not rude - I still don't understand what you mean.

With onagar here; consciousness is physical. It's palpable, measurable, discernable, etc.

EBD, I know a lot of scientists and generally intelligent people believe in God/god, but I've seen no evidence that theology is nowt but a human construct to give comfort and security to those who'd otherwise feel lost in the big wide world.

Though who am I to say, when I consider the patterns of mathematics, the symmetry of nature and all that, whether or not there's a higher deity or intelligence busy up there somewhere.

Oops forgot to answer the question. Animals don't have souls imo, but neither do we humans.

NancysGarden - the phrase you used "the light that goes out when you die" hits the nail on the head. It is something that I have been thinking a lot about recently.

The question I am struggling with is if there is a 'light' or a 'soul' in existence before the moment of death then what happens to it the moment after death?

From a scientific point of view I know the electrical and chemical impulses in the brain cease, I know the physical structures decompose, I know that conciousness is lost -but what about the soul?

On whether animals have a 'soul' - well I would feel I was being very arrogant if I thought that the human species is the only one capable of having a soul. Even if I do not know what a 'soul' really is.

[By the way, thank you for the second compliment - our previous conversation was about 'snogging'. An equally weighty topic. ]

What about just before conception? Is the spark of divine fire a result of sperm and egg chemically interacting? Or was I in some way present before I physically started?

There is not much of a difference between these 2 weighty topics!

EBD (oops, bad acronym!) I imagine whence the light goes (bad English or what?) after death depends on your belief system. The jury's still out as far as I'm concerned. Have recently had a close bereavement and am forced to confront this one. I believe it goes somewhere, it has to. But where?

[is the spark of divine fire a result of sperm and egg...?] Do you believe in the "story of creation"? I think I'm starting to...or something similar.

milou2/Nancysgarden - yes I think that sperm-egg question is perhaps even more interesting.

The egg actually exists in a premature form in the female ovary before she is born but I cannot believe the soul is really there in the egg at that point (or in the prenatal sperm of the male child) but at what point is the soul formed? I mean that if the 'soul' does not exist before egg fertilisation - when does it begin to exist? How does it get there? Where does it go after death - well yes definitley somewhere but where?

These questions make me feel very uncomfortable because I am not a religious person although I believe in a 'God figure'. To be honest the rational scientist part of me finds it all a bit 'hand wavey' and 'mumbo jumbo' as well.

That said - I stil believe that people/animals have souls.

EBD, it's all easier if you stop trying to believe in a soul. We "go" nowhere after death, except in the memories of people who remember us. Not demeaning that; in fact to me, it's what's comforting about death - the memories of those who are left.

But I accept that for many, that's not enough. I can see why religions developed...
The fact that in some ways they are so disparate doessn't concern me - all in some way are concerned with maintaining memories, or emphasising the thread of life in one way or another, but to me it's all a human construct.

I really should be doing some work but couldn't resist: at which point the soul is formed is an interesting question.

I'm not a religious person (although I was raised as a Christian) and strongly dislike organised religion, often. I think as soon as man (and it was a man) starts interpreting the word of Godde, you are on shaky ground. I also think we are none of us perfect, so that old Christian adage of those without sin casting the first stone, actually rings true for me, which is why organised religion doesn't work, it's full of hypocrites. (I was tempted by Buddhism for a while but I fell out with the idea of reincarnation which on closer examination is one of the most sexist/ prejudiced/ evil ideas I ever heard.)

Anyway, I'm rambling.

Evenbetadad: no I don't believe the soul inhabits the ovary or the prenatal sperm, (the very idea!) but I believe it comes from somewhere and here is where I get stuck.

NancysGarden - your dislike of organised religion and everything you said is exactly as I am.

That is where I get stuck too .

hmmm...if there isn't a soul and everyhting is purely biology/genes/dna...whatever....well, that is bleak thought, bec ause it truely than means, that when you die that is it....if you believe in soul, something will live on....
like I said earlier, I believe the soul to be at the core of a being, the spirituality (this does not necessarily mean in a religious sense....spirituality is the sense of self and where your inner motivation comes from, etc....)...I think we get our soul the moment we are born...

but I have no proof of course ...and just like for others religious beliefs may be a comfort, to me the belief of a soul is my comfort

It would be bleak. I can't believe we just "live on in people's memories". What sense would there be in untimely deaths? And the suffering, the pain of the human condition?