To think that animals do have souls........

[milou2]

even though Xenia says they don't. Discuss!

Cats do have incest! The dirty buggars!

I'd argue that people don't have souls either though.

Badgers are notorious for lax and dodgy sexual practices.

But surely the point was that it's not called incest because they don't share our morality structures. Not because they aren't at it the dirty little blighters.

I think that a soul is connected with self-awareness, and is therefore something which only humans have. But I don't think our souls is separate from our body and personality, it's just a way of describing our capacity to be self-aware, and (for me as a Christian) therefore also capable of being aware of the existence of God.

But how do we know that other beings don't have self awareness - just that it's not displayed in a way that means anything to us?

hmm...suppose it depends what you mean by soul?

To me, within a human being it is the very core of a person, their spirituality, their sense of self....
but by that token, I am not sure animals would be bale to be classed as having a soul....
but who knows....

I don't think it matters tbh.
All sentient creatures are capable of pain, hunger, comfort and other basic sensations so they should be treated with a fair degree of respect.

There are experiments with animals to check whether they have a sense of self-awareness on any way that we can detect - things like how they react to reflections or language, which I believe not even the more intelligent animals show the same kinds of reactions as humans. But it's a long time since I read those studies, and it doesn't prove that they definitely don't have self-awareness, so I guess its not completely clear either way.

until they can speak, I say we will never truely know....
however animals definetely can feel pain...and I suppose various animals can show an attachment to other animals , which would include humans....and I don't think it is necessarily just about who feeds them...so....hmm...not sure where that leads us, lol

They can certainly feel pain, and distress, and strong bonds with each other, and should therefore be treated with respect and not caused unneccessary suffering. Whether they have a soul or not makes no difference to that.

I would have thought anything animate has a soul if you believe in soul. I personally do.

like I said, I think it depends on how you define soul....Nancy....
but yes, animals do deserve respect....but I am very guilty of not buying free range stuff....so, feel very hypocritical right now

How anyone can look at higher apes (is that what they're called?) and not think they're pretty much the same as us is beyond me.

Same relationships, group dynamics, caring for each other, having spats etc.

And I'm not at all sure that our society is superior, given the destructive and violent nature of human beings as a group.

I would call soul the light/ fire in a sentient being that goes out when he/she/it dies. Reductionist maybe, but I have read and thought quite a lot about these things over the years, this is where I'm at.

I'm buggered then.

I have neither light nor fire.

Barely even a spark these days...

oh spam...

Some schools of thoughts have it that only human beings have imaginations and an awareness that they are going to die. But can't say I have ever canvassed the views of either a gorilla or a blue whale on this one.
Or a queen bee, for that matter (aren't insect colonies regarded as a different type of intelligence, not a lesser one necessarily, hive mind and all that?)

not really nancys

Good spam

Solid, doesn't imagination have more to do with communication systems that soul? That is, each is species specific. We alone in the animal kingdom, can express our hopes/ dreams/ what we did last week. Other species have fairly sophisticated communicative systems, but it's no coincidence that we are at the top of the food chain.

That stuff about the different type of intelligence of insect colonies is fascinating but I would still argue that the collective consciousness of a bee colony probably makes up a multi-faceted soul. (Ooh have a just contradicted myself there?)
That said, I am

oh bugger just deleted the rest of the long post and I haven't got the energy to type it again more later if my take-away curry revives me

But nancys maybe other things do communciate their hopes and dreams and awareness but we are not able to understand them...

well that might be true spam, I have an open mind, just basing my opinions on flawed research findings. After all, all carried out by a human. But my argument was that imagination is a communication thingy, not a soul thingy (sorry, very hungry, sore back, suddenly become very inarticulate) I DO believe in soul. I believe all living things (as I've said) have one.

(By living things I do of course mean animate anc sentient, not cabbages and cauliflowers!) (ok, really going this time)

Poor old cabbages are getting a bit of a battering on this thread.

I hope they're not reading it...

Hecates - I agree the soul has something to do with conciousness.

I believe strongly in a 'God' and am also a scientist and I still cannot explain how the biochemical signals and physical structures of the brain give rise to the existence of a concious being that has such things as emotions, character and the ability to choose between right and wrong.

All I can say, is that 'the soul' is the unknown third leg that connects the physical/chemical struture of the brain to conciousness.