To think that if you cannot afford free range chicken/turkey meat and eggs...

[LolaTheShowgirl]

...then don't buy at all?

I mean the suffering these birds go through in cramped, dirty sheds is unbelievable. There is usually no natural light and the birds are usually ill before they're culled.

If you can stomach it, please look at these:
WARNING: NOT NICE PICTURES!
HERE

Sheshells: things have improved VASTLY over the last 20 years - even over the last 5. Anchor ONLY have free-range cows now!

Surely the Qtty of meat you need for a meal depends on the number of people you actually have to feed?

Dietstartstomorrow, I agree with you WRT the way supermarkets work. Surely there must be a middle ground between the £1.99 and £8 that would allow for more ethical if not really FR?

As I said previously, we do buy our meat at a Halal butchers, I have no idea the source of it but we usually pay between £3/£4 for a medium chicken. I do not know what the same chicken would cost in a supermarket though.

In France almost all of the chickens sold are free range and corn fed. That's because the farmers get good subsidies, they are protected and looked after by the government. Supermarkets sell local produce only, never mind from abroad! And the chicken was just as cheap as an ordinary chicken here.

So it can be done. Chickens can be kept in free range conditions and sold to supermarkets for a fair price without the consumer having to pay for the priviledge.

Agree Rhubarb.

I'd like to be able to get free-range all the time (however I did once get a FR chicken and my DP and myself thought the cheaper one was tastier and less dry). I am getting a bit bored of people saying "ohhh eat dust and bulk it out with water", meat gives a bit of variety in meals and when we are in such a shite time a bit of enjoyment in our miserable lives comes in the form of something nice to eat IMO

If I am honest I probably could afford to buy FR everything, but I am more interested in putting any extra money I may have into savings for my kid, and I am also saving just incase myself or DP loses our jobs in the recession so we can at least keep paying our mortgage for a couple of months while looking for work. I am sure the mortgage company won't be bothered that I can't pay my mortgage but "I did buy free range so aren't I great?"

So yes to me keeping a roof over our heads and my baby are more important than farmed LEGAL, tasty, bred-specifically-for-eating meat.

Yes I care about the suffering, but to be honest as long as I don't have to meet my dinner first or do the killing myself I will carry on eating meat.

If factory farmed meat is made illegal then FR will have to become cheaper as there will be more demand so the problem lies with the supermarkets.

This was in the last five years. It was last year. She was the person behind the free range ads.

Anchor wanted to show her the difference between the way the cattle are reared on their farms compared to other farms.

I think the idea that if you don't have money you should be veggie is extremely arrogant.

Something that the pro-organic food group on here is forgetting is that it is much easier to get nutrients from their natural food groups (iron from red meat, calcium from milk etc).

Being a vegetarian is also hard work and means that someone who actually cares will have to spend half the day cooking.

I would always give my unborn child dairy even if I felt guilty about a few chickens - calcium is one of the single most important nutrients for children and contrary to popular belief every adult (until the age of 30) and child needs dairy in order to protect against osteoporosis.

there is a big difference between saying: eat dairy/be a veggie and saying: avoid chicken.

eat DUST I mean

I think you ABVFU. If you care that a chicken gets to roam free and wild and care for it's well being so much then why eat meat in the first place? You object to animals being raised in barns but not to their being slaughtered for food?

I love meat and will tend to eat the best I can afford at my local butchers, but a barn chicken there is far cheaper (£6) than a free range chicken (£12) and I have a budget to keep to.

Most supermarkets now only provide free-range eggs anyhow, but to say if you can't afford free range to not eat meat and deny yourself a major food group is out of touch and unreasonable.

MP, if I, for instance, avoided chicken. Then what next? Surely I should also avoid pork because of the conditions they are kept it? Penned in so much they can't turn around. And I should avoid beef because of the way they too, are treated.

The problem here lies not with the consumer, but the supermarkets who pay pittance to the farmers and the government who do nothing to protect the farmers interests.

I haven't managed to read all the way through this thread - just the first 8 pages or so, plus the last two.

I am one of the people caught between ethics and practicality as I try to feed dh, myself and three hungry teenagers (well, one is just 12 but still eats plenty) on a budget. I also suffer from depression, so I do struggle with things like finding the motivation for cooking that involves a lot of work, and thinking up new recipes and menus for the week, so I do end up stuck in a rut of the same/similar dishes over and over (thankfully no-one seems to mind). I'm also very overweight so would like to eat more healthily too - but struggle with that as well.

However, I would like to be more ethical and more imaginative with my cooking, so what I'd really need is some recipes - it seems to me from what I have read of this thread that there are plenty of you out there who are either using cheaper cuts of meat, or bulking out organic meat, or eating some/all vegetarian food, and I wonder if it is worth starting a separate thread to pull all these recipes together.

Most of us know and appreciate the ethical issues, but I believe that actually showing people how it's possible (and easy, hopefully) to live the ethical life, is far more effective than lecturing people or making them feel bad for their choices.

Oh, i'm sorry dietstartstomorrow

I didn't realise you were quoting people!

Thanks for agreeing!

"Most of us know and appreciate the ethical issues, but I believe that actually showing people how it's possible (and easy, hopefully) to live the ethical life, is far more effective than lecturing people or making them feel bad for their choices. "

The main reason people don't buy free range is to do with cost. And I fail to see how you can solve that one unless you start with the government.

My impression was that there are people on this thread who are managing on small budgets but have found ways/recipes that allow them to buy the more expensive chicken etc - not eating meat every day etc.

What I was suggesting was a thread for ethical yet economical menus and recipes - if I can try some ways to bulk out more expensive meat or some good vegetarian recipes, and I can see that they work and that kids like them, I'm more likely to give it a go than if I am just made to feel bad by people.

I do agree that cost is the main issue, and I think that the supermarkets could do more to promote ethical food, but if more people are moving away from the really cheap chicken etc, and demand falls, so will the supply, plus the ethical food should fall in price too.

Good point Rhubarb.

I think everyone has to prioritise according to their family and finances.If you have fussy kids who love chicken but you can't afford free range what is the choice?If you can afford it od course you should buy it as theoretically that should help bring the price down but when I go to the supermarket more people still seem to buy the normal ones.In sainsburys a big decent chicken as about £12 and they also do 3 for a tenner.I can afford it atm but not sure what I would do if I couldn't but we really fancied a roast

I haven't read the rest of the thread so may be repeating things.
I think it is incredibly arrogant and patronising to tell other people how to spend their money, or what they can and can't eat.
But I do agree that animal welfare is important, and personally I do try to buy free range and organic wherever possible. I can't really afford it, so it means that we eat a lot of eggs (cheaper than meat), and when I do use meat it is small portions bulked out with lots of vegetables and chicken thighs instead of breasts etc. It's a personal choice, and I understand that not everyone feels the way I do. I don't think the best way to convert people to your cause is to say "you're poor, you can't eat meat".

you got there before me
"I do agree that cost is the main issue, and I think that the supermarkets could do more to promote ethical food, but if more people are moving away from the really cheap chicken etc, and demand falls, so will the supply, plus the ethical food should fall in price too."

theoretically Noddy yes, but has anyone noticed that free range seems more expensive now?

We used to be able to afford free range and bought it well before Jamie Oliver came on the scene. Then it went flying off the shelves and we could no longer get it! Now when I look at the prices I'm sure it used to be cheaper.

The problem does not lie with supermarkets it lies with the consumer. The supermarkets act in a capitalist society and simply respond to the consumers' demands - they are simply corporate entities aimed at maximising returns for their stakeholders. If they could achieve this through selling more free range and organic products, they would. As it stands, it is more economic for them to sell the current product mix. Until consumers stop buying non-free range produce then they will continue to sell it if it is economically attractive.

The problem does not lie with the government it lies with the voter. We are a democratic and capitalist society and the government will not typically intervene against the market unless there is an overwhelming economic imperative or there is a very clear demand from the general population to do so for non-eceonomic reasons. Until people stand up and start demanding that produce is free range then it will not happen.

Well I used to think a decent chicken was about 7 or 8 and it is at least 11 now

Cestlavie - if the supermarkets are putting the food on the shelves it will be bought by the consumer, ergo the problem lies with them. It will be easier to convert 5 supermarket chains rather than millions of consumers no??

Not enough exercise possibly. And you'd have to look at whether girls in particular eat enough dairy in childhood and through the teenage years, not just overall population. And vitamin D levels - you need Vit D to asorb calcium.