To think these ads are offensive to all women and should be banned by a minority of them?

[Vittoria]

msmagazine.com/spring2009/nocomment.asp

I think the first one is quite funny actually. And probably very true. Just because men like to think about casual sex more than women think about romance, I'm not offended!

The secoind one I imagine is offensive to some conservatives per se, but when are they known for reading rolling stone magazine? And soince when does one person getting personally offended by an ad in a mag they never read have the right to dictate what the rest of us see?

"That seems like quite a sweeping statement. There must surely be a lot of feminists within the biological sciences after all. What science-denying feminists did you have in mind? "

Og course it's a sweeping statement. If I spent all me time going into the noitty gritty on MN I;d never get any work done! It's a flavour.

Iorek, I'm not being patronising, please don't throw that old shoe at me - but grappiling with feminist epistomilogies is harder than removing your mooncup for the first time - and it creates just as much mess!

Liberal feminists don't as a rule reject rationalism or the scientific meathod, but postmodern feminists do, and they are the ones in the positions of power within academia.

IorekByrnison No, it wasn't tame but more female orientated. I had a great time in the 80's with some very lovely non aggressive men who allowed me to live out my fantasy in a safe way. Maybe I was lucky

So your criticism of feminism had nothing to do with the ad? My mistake, I thought that it was the feminist responses to the ad on this thread that had provoked your remarks.

Not sure about the female embryo thing and religion. I was brought up in a thoroughly patriarchal religion but truly can't see how knowing all embryos start off female has any bearing on any part of religious belief. Might be different amongst the more radical religious fundamentalists, but if feminists expended all their energy trying to engage with those types using scientific arguments I think it would be something of a waste of resources.

S(and)M there do seem to be quite a few feminists who hang around MN who don't seem to acknowledge that the feminist movement (for want of a better expression) has moved on. One of the discoveries that it seems odd they haven't picked up and run with is the hardwiring of mammals to be female first then develop male characteristics or stick with femmale.

Can't remember anyone actually saying they shouldn't be scientists.

SM, I'm a reiver.

Like I just said to Iorek, postmodern feminists absuloutely are apposed to all science that isn't feminist science whgich means rejecting the scientific method, bringing in subjectiveity and 'intuition' which makes it so not sceibce as to make your heed spin.

Monkeytrousers, I certainly wasn't suggesting that you were being patronising, I'm just trying to get a handle on what your argument is. I do think you need to be a little more specific about which feminists you are talking about if you are suggesting they are anti-scientific. It really doesn't make any sense otherwise.

Who are the postmodern feminists you are thinking of?

Iorek, the convo is evolving is all. And this is what I do. I'm interested in it so I tlak about it. Shoudl I not?

but I have had alot of wine now

MT are you seriously suggesting "post-modern" feminists deny science/scientific research

science and scientific research have greatly contributed to improving health health outcomes

for example reducing neonate mortalities eg
Extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ecmo)for ill neonates.direct result of scientific rresearch

Wait there Starbear, I'm catching up. The 2002 DeBortoli shiraz is a little sleepy but still full bodied enough to take advantage of

"Might be different amongst the more radical religious fundamentalists, but if feminists expended all their energy trying to engage with those types using scientific arguments I think it would be something of a waste of resources"

Well we'll just have to respectfully disagree. I think women who live unbder these tyrannies are in the most need and that it is a 'feminist' issue.

Or maybe that's the point. The plight of these women really doesn't interest 'feminists' so I better had call myself somehting else and just get on with trying to help them.

Yes, SM. It's a fact. And one that postmodernists are very proud of, I assure you.

Postmodernism is all about trying to 'tear down grand narratives'. The scientific methord is one of those grand narratives.

Monkeytrousers, I'm not suggesting that women suffering through religious oppression don't need help, just that this probably isn't a very fruitful way to go about it.

And to your other question, of course you should talk about it, and of course I am interested - that is why I am discussing it with you. I'm just trying to get at what exactly it is that you are saying.

"for example reducing neonate mortalities eg
Extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ecmo)for ill neonates.direct result of scientific rresearch"

Got no idea what you are on about here sorry. Something about infant mortality?

Okay Iorek. No bother

ok will take your word for it.that there are science denouncers

presumably they don't go to the GP,Dentist or other professions inextricably linked with the sciences

taffier sooo sad when you get to an age when your man would rather talk sport with Paul the neighbour instead of pushing him out the door and telling you to put your Swedish masseurs outfit on or your cellulite shows through the UPVC hot pants and bustier outfit

MT don't you mean Nae Bother?

Honets, I'm not making it up. I wish I was! liberal feminists don't deny it, but sopmetimes cynicism takes over from skepticism.

LOL. Yeah I think their ideology is left outside the GP's surgery.

Going to bed now toooooo much wine

It's kind of mixed with northumbrian here. And I have a posh accent,i.e I don't swear like a navvy (but a civil servant!)

OK, so name and shame. Who are these powerful anti-science feminists? It is something I really feel I need to know.

Ah starbear - don't you want to see the feminists fighting? It's like mudwrestling but less exploitative

presumably these science denying feminists dont use pc,mobile phone,internet.all evil manifestations of science and oppression
MT do come back and name and link the proponents of science denouncement

perhaps they use quill and ink