to think this woman's misguided to say the least?!

[Floopy21]

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/melanie_reid/article6101189.ece

Ali - I think you will find that there is absolutely no evidence which says that homebirths actually have more complications than hospital births, in fact the royal college of midwives have figures which show that the rate of complications and consequential interventions are substantially lower for homebirths. Do you mean that when complications do arise you think that it is more likely that the outcome will be a bad one?

By AliGrylls- "Personally, I would prefer to listen to the views of those that are qualified to give it."

Touching. I'm just glad that I came home from my booking-in appointment with the (male) obstetrician who told me that the risk of a flat (ie non-breathing) baby was 1 in 40. Actual statistic: 1 in 400. Only out by a factor of 10 then. Close enough.

Duchesse - bloody hell! Glad you were together enough to check the figures yourself. Imagine if you were nervous anyway and given those odds!

Absolutely, I would never assume anyone to be infallible due to their chosen profession.

My husband has brought cases against 2 GP's who refuse to treat hyper tension, a killer condition and they through sheer arrogance that they know best refused to prescribe the available drugs. That knocked "white coat syndrome" (believing anything said to you by a Dr to be absolute fact) on the head for me personally. Yes they know a lot but nobody knows everything.

Oh yes the MESS

Actually there was v.little mess. A lot less mess than I experienced in hospital and at least the mess at home was mine.

Its lovely wading through some other woman's ickyness when you need a shower.

I just had to negotiate the tardis in the bath and the darleks in the hallway.

Like many other posters I didnt have any problems from HCP involved in my care. Not one negative comment regarding homebirth. Despite the huge age gap between last birth child and youngest (14yrs) and my age 40.

So if all these HCP were not concerned why are so many people convinced home birth is dangerous?

Please eeky, show us these statistics to prove that there is a much higher risk of mother and/or baby dying at a homebirth or midwife unit birth!!!!!!

I never "think" I can birth without 21st century medicine - I know I can - twice!

both kids were happily born without drugs or intervention - that was my informed choice
I was happy with it I have 2 happy healthy children - that is all that matters

I miscarried twice and stayed at home for those too.

I never felt unsafe I felt truly amazing I'd do it again a million times over.

but that's me and my choices.

the mess! the "mess"

HAHHAHA! I "leaked" on a pre laid towel on the bedroom floor waters went on my bed and I had put inco pads down so hubby moved that for me rubbed my back a bit I gave birth held my son went to the bathroom for a clean up midwife changed bed chucked out plastic sheets laid a load of incos and a draw sheet for me rinsed the sink and wiped the bathroom floor with it's 4 drops of blood on hubby washed one sheet 2 towels a flannel binned a nightie and that was "the mess"

Oh yeah I forgot about the argument against home birth due to the unavoidable Omaha beach style mess

My waters broke onto an ancient towel. There were a couple of inco pads under me as I delivered - these went straight in the bin.

A quick wipe around of the floor and sofa cover in the washing machine and there ya go - my living room was as clean as it was before!

SparklingSarah - stories like yours are stopping me giving up on this thread!

The taking sides, the blind faith in all medical professionals, the petty snipes at home birthers........all very anti-sisterhood imo. It looks to me that a lot of the anti home birth feeling comes from resentment.

Stoopid bloody article!

Birth is not a competition. Do it however you want. A healthy baby is the only end goal.

The Mess
They don't hand you a mop and bin bag with the words 'placenta is over there love and a bit of blood needs mopping too'. Most community MWs pride themselves on leaving the place in a better state than they found it.

Also, if the MW even thinks you might be going to have complications they get you to hospital.
My 2nd + 3rd babies were quick. Just as well I planned homebirths I wouldn't have made it to the hospital in time and a baby en route is far worse surely than a homebirth.
I found the whole tone of the article insulting.

i think one thing that we have all addressed is taht there are risks in home and hospital births, and we want evidence to make informed choices

women cannot make informed choices when told they or their baby will die if they do XYZ or has a much greater risk of dying if they do XYZ

women deserve to be given the correct information to make their choice

and even if the information tells them there is a greater risk, it is their risk to take.

treating women like non sentient beings who need to be told what to do when pregnant as they are incapable of making decisions safely is insulting and uneccesary

how many times do we hear 'I was not allowed a homebirth/waterbirth/ to give birth upright...' ??

Lulu I HATE hearing the "I was not allowed...." shpiel.

I own my own body and my own mind. If anyone, regardless of their perceived importance, told me what I was allowed to do during birth (without a valid reason) I'd politely tell them where to get off.

Was speaking to a friend yesterday who had her baby in hospital. Despite making clear on numerous occasions that she wanted to be upright and mobile during labour she was strapped to the bed for constant foetal monitoring for 12 hours with no apparent cause.

She asked why and was brushed off and ended up too tired to argue.

The result was giving birth in a very uncomfortable position and an incredibly sore back for the first few weeks of her baby's life due to laying on her back for so long.

She bitterly regrets not standing her corner more vociferously.

The Mess:

In two homebirths, the vile pink carpet not of our choosing sustained:

Birth 1) a damp patch from waters breaking as I got out of bed 24 hours before she arrived. Could have happened if she'd been born in hospital. A 1p coin sized blood spot from when I was waddling to the bathroom after the birth. Came out easily with a bit of carpet shampoo. All pads, surgical sheets etc removed by midwives.

Birth 2) Nothing. Estimated total blood loss 100ml (less than some periods). As before, all pads and sheets removed by midwives. Towels placed near washing machine by midwives.

Bunny- that's exactly why I eschew hospital births. I'm a pretty independent person and I really resent the systemic implication that once I'm in labour I become hospital property, and that all my wishes can be ignored. I too ended up giving birth to my first on my back (didn't even have an epidural, so no dead legs) despite it being absolutely not what I wanted. I needed 3 stitches after than one. I gave birth to both girls upright on my knees, which was what I wanted to do in hospital too, but was turned over by the midwives.

You just get sucked into the system, and they end up doing things to suit themselves rather than you.

Both my births were very different.

My daughter just turned 7 I had a low rik pregnancy in as much I was young fit healthy and progressed nicely.
However I ws also single prone to depression
and really quite frightened.

I also have a condition called Perthes
essentially my hip has no blood flow it is dying.

my daughter was born on my mum's sofa - my labour hadn't been long nor painful
and the "professionals" decided that there was no way on this earth I'd started
so I rang an ambulance by then I was in a fair bit of pain.
they came out and delivered my daughter 13th April at 13:00

the down side was going to hospital - being poked and prodded and told I should have come in tutted at like a 3 year old my child taken from me a bottle thrust in her mouth
told I was too tired to feed her myself

7 years later I was pregnant with my son
I wanted a HB because that is my choice
I wanted to stay at home where I feel safe
an also I had to bear in mind that my first had been so quick I may not have time to even get to hospital.
I argued the whole time I swapped MW's half way I had to complain to the PCT about my GP calling me a "silly woman" and telling me I was NOT giving birth at home.

My son was born on 31st May in my bed - again I was not in any pain MW stood back and left me to do what I felt was right
I knew he was on hand my OH was kneeling by me and watching with joy.
don't assume those who HB are in agonising pain and think they can cope - because you are relaxed and where you want to be where you are you aren't tense you are doing what feels right - pain comes when things are forced when you are frightened when you are tense.

natural 3rd stage and the placenta is in the freezer ( whole!)

When you cat or dog hamster or goldfish is whelping the advice goes let them find a nest just watch them closely and leave them to do what they need to do don't touch the young let them find their own way out let mum clean them let mum feed them let mum get them safe.
So why as intelligent beings do we not think if we are left to do what we want to hospital home hanging from a pear tree whilst juggling apples that we can give birth feel like the queen of the world for we have just brought life into the world!
that is the best?

why do we have to insult others?
why do we allow ourselves to be bullied into doing things we don't want?
if you want a HB and the MW or whoever says no and that is what you want go seek advice elsewhere!
If you want to have a section be drugged up to the eyeballs and the MW says no - go seek advice elsewhere.

If your hairdresser says ohh bangs are SO YOU! and you think yea right bugger off!
you decline - if she tried to carry on you'd go elsewhere.

We all have the right to discuss and decide what is best for us.

Yes I am pro HB no sandals no socks certainly not spoilt
just an ordinary woman from an ordinary place in an ordinary job doing erm ordinary things!

I too would like to read the evidence suggesting that the risk of complications is higher in homebirths, and that midwife-led units are not safe places to give birth. I haven't researched the midwife-led units myself, but did read up on homebirths before I had mine, and didn't find any data suggesting that the risk of complications was higher - the polar opposite, in fact.

If the obstetrician who has posted can link to evidence-based studies proving that homebirths have a higher risk of complications, then I will take that information on board and weigh it up with the other evidence based information that I had at the time.

But as all the evidence that I have read or heard of suggests that homebirth is actually safer, in low-risk pregnancies, I cannot help but believe that there is no evidence to prove that homebirth brings a higher risk of complications, and this is simply another scare-story being used by a doctor to try to frighten women.

I also find it very hard to believe that, if there really was evidence showing homebirth carried a higher risk of complications, that midwives would carry on being happy to support women giving birth at home. Midwives are highly trained professionals, who make every effort to stay up-to-date with the research in their chosen field - not ignorant people who are either unwilling or unable to understand the research!!

Oh, Rebecca, thank you - at last someone with common sense! What most of the posters replying to my post simply do not understand is that a "low-risk" pregnancy is assessed at booking on the mothers medical history, and obstetric history if she has been pregnant before. This can change in seconds in labour. What I actually said was that if you have a complication during labour (which is, by definition, unexpected if you are "low-risk", THEN the chances of morbidity or mortality are higher. What is crucial to understand is that you don't know whether this will happen! Yes, it's unlikely but the outcome is catastrophic if it does.
I had a very busy weekend at work where a "low-risk" first mum was transferred in from a home birth because the baby had a sudden dip in the heartrate - fetal distress- at 9cm dilated. The baby was hypoxic on her arrival at the unit 10 minutes after her midwife rang an ambulance (about as quick as you can hope for). She was fully dilated on arrival and required a forceps delivery to get baby out bloody quickly. It was evident she had had a placental abruption (bleed behind the placenta) which had cut off the blood supply to the baby.Her baby is in the neonatal intensive care unit in a poor condition. She delivered the placenta along with 2 litres of blood in my lap and bled another litre before we could control the bleeding. She has needed a blood transfusion and drug support to the kidneys due to the amount of blood loss. She and her baby are VERY lucky to be alive - most in this situation would have had a worse outcome. I'm not saying the home birth caused this, of course, but that if she had been maybe 5 minutes further away,
they both would have died. Clearly this is an extreme case - but completely unpredictable. Yes, it's unlikely to be you -but are you willing to take that risk?
Statistics are not needed to back this up - it's called many years' experience working on labour ward every day. If any of you can explain how an abruption, an assisted delivery, a baby needing intubation and a 3 litre bleed with some degree of renal failure would be managed at home safely by a midwife, then please do let me know!
There were also many spontaneous, normal vaginal deliveries at work this weekend - many in high-risk women. I did manage to restrain myself from interfering in any of their labours, contrary to popular belief - and was pleased to offer congratulations to each of them on their beautiful new baby.

Oh, and home births and midwifery-led units exist because they are a lot cheaper than funding more obstetric units - that's the harsh truth. The Government can save a considerable amount of money in this way. At present, along with home births, they offer the politically correct notion of "choice".

I'm sorry, eeky, but anecdotal evidence is not the same as statistics, nor does it carry as much weight.

We can all tell horror stories. We have heard horror stories on this thread about dirty hospitals, staff pressuring women to accept interventions that they don't want and that contribute to a poor outcome for either mother or baby, midwives trying to care for several mothers at once, women left labouring alone, trying to labour in silence because they are on a ward, not somewhere private - are these things risks that women should have to take?

It wasn't a "horror story" or an anecdote. It is an explanation of what happens, every single day, to a minority of very unfortunate women. If you choose to ignore this reality, that is, naturally, entirely your prerogative. I certainly have many issues with improvement of current NHS obstetric services. However, if I had a complaint about my delivery, I'd rather it was - to use one of your examples - that I didn't get as much privacy as I would have liked on a ward, rather than my baby had died due to complications at my home delivery which may have been treatable in hospital.

ok, can see that opinions will always differ on this subject and will retire gracefully... I am expecting our 2nd baby (looking forward to a normal delivery without a doctor in sight - really!)and any more discussion will increase my blood pressure even further

I totally agree stayingsunny.

I had a feeling I'd be told that midwife-led units are allowed to exist because they're cheaper than paying all those terribly important obstetricians!!

Though it's funny isn't it, because wasn't that other doctor, rebecca, complaining about the costs on the under resourced health service of transferring all those selfish women from home or midwife units into hospital at the last minute?!

So are they more expensive or not- make your mind up!

As I said before, many medics opt for a very medicalised birth, drugged up to the eyeballs (every doctor I know has gone down the very medicalised route by choice) so they're hardly a fair representation in terms of how they choose to deliver. The important thing to recognise though is that it's a CHOICE - it doesn't mean the medicalised route is safer.

But eeky, surely your example is one of success of the interaction between home and hospital birth? The midwives (correctly) identified a problem and transferred the woman to a place where you could save her.

I am extremely grateful that you are here to save us if things go dramatically wrong, but understandably unhappy about some of the things that happen in hospital during normal problem-free labours (excessive monitoring, interventions that lead to unnatural and uncomfortable birth positions, etc...).

If midwives can manage to identify things going horribly wrong at home armed only with a hand-held doppler, why is continuous monitoring deemed necessary even in low-risk births in hospital, enforcing a more sedentary labour and increasing the likelihood of problems?

If I had not had the crap experiences (even though you might view them as minor, they were not merely or at all about loss of privacy, but about knowing that I was no longer mistress of my own body) I had in my normal if long hospital labour, I may not have gone on to have two home births (wonderfully devoid of the stitching and the high vaginal infection picked up in hospital and that lasted seven months).

violet- funnily enough, the friend who opened my eyes about de-medicalised birth is a medic. Her own wishes for unmedical births came to naught in 2 out of 3 of her labours, thanks to the overzealous attentions of the obstetrician friend looking after her. She ended having 2 CS, followed by a VBAC.

Eeky - I think you will find that women are not choosing homebirth simply so that they have more privacy. There are multiple reasons for choosing a homebirth and in my experience and from what I read on this thread and elsewhere a lot of women opting for homebirth are doing so because they genuinely believe it to be the only way of getting a better standard of care from having their own dedicated midwives rather than attending a hospital where it is likely that their midwife will be horribly stretched looking after multiple labouring women.

I completely respect your opinion regards your preference for a hospital birth and your reasons for it but don't insult those choosing a homebirth (as the journalist who's article started this thread did) by suggesting that we are choosing it simply so that we can have a few candles lit and access to our own bathroom. With a straightforward birth you can be discharged from hospital within hours anyway so it's surely more than just not feeling comfortable in hospital which leads women down this path.