To think this woman should not rely on the council?

[tessofthedurbervilles]

A woman I got chatting to disclosed that her and her five kids were going to be evicted from her house due to complaints from neighbours about their anti social behaviour. Her whole attitude was one of it being someone elses' fault and responsibilty 'the council won't rehouse me' how dare they.
Nobody with 5 kids should be thrown out on to the street but her whole attitude was that her and her brood were someone else's responsibility.
I suggested she look for somewhere pdq but she looked at me blankly and said 'if I sleep in my car and the press get wind of it they will have to do something'
Is it me? AIBU to think your kids, love, your problem....move over Jeremy Kyle..I'm after your job!

'but not re-housing them and getting the parent/s to step up and take responsibility would be an important lesson'

having read a bit on the outcomes of homelessness during childhood,failing to rehouse will very likely lead to 5 X the problems as the children group up themselves.

Foster care is a lottery..... either its an excellent new start or a complete hell hole breeding all the in-care things we read about.

The family that spriobgs to mine I knew whow eren't housed ended up being palced in a hostel, one room for them all. The kids were littlies but had they been there long term or when the children were older they'd clrearly have been unable to do homework very easily / sleep well / etc. All things that make a situation worse for the kids.

If it's Mum throwing things etc then i'm and think i'd be looking at foster care as somone who bhaves like that either has mental health issues (in which case CPN input may be enough) or - well yes.

But i'd always be reluctant to make 5 children homeless because where I can dismiss an adult like this as not deserving help (assuming absence of mental health issues) children can never dismss so easily and their care is paramount.

I do know what it's like to live near a family like this- we had lots of issues with two 'asbo famillies' where we last lived and had to keep diaries etc, but we were told that if they were evicted they'd be rehoused near us anyway, as the council had a duty to the children. Indeed, apaprenlty one of the two famillies had been evicted,palced in a hostel then rehoused next door to where they'd come from .

There's a chance we'l be fghting to keep a roof over our heads as DH's job may be over iin under 2 weeks, I don't understand how anyone can take that threat lightly. We have four and I will do whatever it takes to prevent that happening. We're in this situation through no fault of our own (DH's work making redundancies, all reapplying for jobs, I'm a carer for sn kids) and I'd still feel guilty if we have to rely on the state at all.

I don't wear a dressing gown and don't read the daily mail

I agree with purepurple, you need to want to help yourself.

I have had really shitty times too in the past but I have never expected benefits to be my primary source of care. I have always at least tried my hardest to help myself.

It's an attitude. And you are right Sleepless, it will multiply fivefold with her kids, but I ask you again what would you do to change the cycle?

sleepless respect, used to be a manager for homestart and they do change things.

Mentoring schemes work.Taht's an acknowledged fact. Bt the big issue is the fundinga nd competing budgets..... IIRC the stat was that every £8 spent on HS sabed SS £80, but nevertheless our fudning was withdrawn and SS ahd to take ver the case. SS don't cope and famillies fall through the system rapidly- bt sound financial investment isn't always the strongest point of grant making bodies.

You are an old hippy and a soft one at that

who is?

I do take Stretford's point about needing to take a wider view, rather than just condemning.

But that said... to say those who think (including me) that people who throw stones at their neighbours, and make their life hell, should face the consequences of those actions, area bunch of Daily Wailers... I'm sorry, no.

Assuming this woman does not have mental health problems (which I guess shouldn't be discounted) - nothing makes her behave in that manner. Understanding that you get housed by your local authority and all you have to do in return is behave like a human being, is a reasonable trade off. Everyone has responsibilities. And to say that those who have least are in some way exempt from those responsibilities, does them a disservice. And in fact, encourages them to behave as though they don't.

In fact, I would argue, quite strongly, that the only way in which this cycle of entitlement / contempt for others / belief that society has to take care of you even though you yourself are making a negative contribution to that society (and by that I mean being a horrible, bullying neighbour) - is to make it clear that individuals have to face the consequences of their actions. Or why else would they stop?

Sleepless, I agree with all your points 100%.

You're trying to help break a cycle, for many who struggle with life, by being involved through Homestart.

Well done.

Sleepless

the answer is i don't fucking know the answer but i am sure it's not about taking them into care\living in a car etc etc. There but for the grace of god and all that.
there are entire generations with no aspirations and no concept of anything other than a benefits culture...

'is to make it clear that individuals have to face the consequences of their actions. Or why else would they stop? '

I totally agree

What i culd not countenance is the life those children will have as a result

When a parent fails then weas astatetakeover responsibility. but we do that so badly with our care system that the idsare effectively stuffed one way or t'other.

which isaterrible awful thing

Well that's what I meant in my first post. They do need help now.

But there still is an attitude issue.

Sleepless - I agree. I absolutely don't know what the answer is. But you can bet your bottom dollar that the five kids will grow up to be every bit as useless as the mother.

I think turning off the benefits tap is the only long term answer. Too many people are a drain on society as some sort of lifestyle choice.

right-so-in answer to longtalljosie-when these people are homeless/more unstable than they are now-what do YOU think will happen? will they feel more or less connected to society and as a result show more or less respect than they are currently doing?
we are lucky-really really fucking lucky. There's a case that you make your own luck but what if someone supported this woman to become more effective and as a result her children were better behaved in school and therefore didn't disrupt your children/end up with no hopes-is THAT not worth trying to make a go at support? she's GOT to have some sort of problems hasn't she the mother to behave like that?

sleepless, you have a fab attitude, but again, you can only help those who want to be helped and take some of the responsibilty themselves.

like they say, you can lead a horse to water........you can;t make it drink!

with our neighbours, like I say, two were actually evicted. altho, they had older teen children, or even the 'children' were early twenties, so for them it was a whole different thing (in fact, both families tried to kill each other with knives last september and I was witness so had to make statements to the police etc.........very scary).

the family who has been threatened, she asked for help and has received it, and altho not what I would call a model parent (altho, who is, really), she is doing a damn good job now and the children are really showing the benefit of that. and they are at school everyday.......she really should take a lot of credit for how she has tried, as should homestart as I think they are the ones who really helped!

for some tho.....there really is no hope for them unless the family goes the whole way and gets evicted. sometimes it needs that final shock for them to see what they have done to themselves...

do you think if they have no rules and guidelines and respect for property\the state\society that taking away their home/income is going to make it more or less likely that they become involved in crime???
i hate to be patronising and do on the whole agree with you-but the problem doesn't go away when you take homes and money from people-it magnifies and multiplies and continues ad infinitum...

I'm with Nancy, too.

I'd invite anyone who has sympathy for this family to go and live next to them for a few years.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to get evicted from a council property in the first place?

And that means the neighbours had to have their lives disrupted and ruined by this.

And you have to be careful about complaining because there have been instances of people being murdered by their nuisance neighbours or having their homes burned down.

Sorry, but I think some people should be streeted! Maybe if they find themselves on the street, and people see that, they'll act a little better.

We'd give our eye teeth for a council property but have a snowball's chance of getting one.

I'm so damned sick of all this hand-wringing and sympathy for people who are fuck ups.

'like they say, you can lead a horse to water........you can;t make it drink!'

IME leading the horse towater through supportive meansoften makesthem want todrink. seriously, it works. Quite often nobody has ever shown the parentsany otherway to live, addressed or even identified whatever is causing the problem- alcohol? SN undiagnosed (happens)? mental health issues? But if you turn up, treat the person as a human being and reach out a non judgemental hand of friendhsip it amkes a mahoosive difference. The trouble is the shortgae not of famillies willing to have the help (my case fil was closed in the end as it was too big) but people able to volunteer, or to fund. Which IMO is evidence that the problem isn't entirely one sided.

NAncy can I ask then how you propose ew cope with the people who are not earning because of redunancies / health / disability / circs beyond their cntrol? Of course I am at anyone who thinks they are owed a living without trying but would you be willing to not only take out their kids (a compete no no in my book)n but an awful lot of others, esp. at the moment with the whole economic crisis?

A family such as mine for example where Dh has worked for eyars, incluidng with a severe health issue, as did I until the boys were dx'd with ASD when I started to claim Carers, but nw DH's workplace is making 50% of staff redundant? Surely that can happen to anyone?

or is it a 'you an hve benefits if we jusge you worthy situation which is quite horrendous

So in Psychomum5's neighbour's case help was beneficial because it was combined with her own attitude.
Don't know enough about woman in op to guage if it would make the blindest bit of difference.
You'd really hope so.

There comes a point when compassion becomes enabling.

There comes a point when compassion becomes enabling.

ExPat we'd love a council house also (or at least the security) buyt I couldnt want to deny a child their home in order for us to get it.

'But you can bet your bottom dollar that the five kids will grow up to be every bit as useless as the mother.'

That'snto true. yes they have a high chance but kids do break the cycle, very many. A childhood friend watched parents in and out of prison,was strangled by dad and needed first aid (but not removed as 16 then), used to go door to door begging for money...... all 3 siblings in prison but not him, he is amrried, a great dad and generally fab person.

i am probably the least hand wringing fucker you could come across you know?I just want to know what YOU would do with 5 children who are on the fringes of society anyway being lobbed on the scrapheap?
people who are fuck ups are still people-i see myself as first and foremost a human being and while i can't endorse what they do i can't turn my back,roundly condemn and do fuck all about it-i don't have the answers but there are enough examples of people who've come out of care and gone straight to prison to know that that isn't the answer...

Yes it does ExP, but only after it has been attempted.

maybe it ahs in this woman's case in which case TBH it's a SS case: but it could quite well be that it has not. Help of the useful kind is in short supply. People talk about letters but half my famillies couldn't even have read them.

We don't know enugh about the woman to rule out far too many variables; if its as simple as she's ascrote (and some are) then yes she has exempted herself from help. I will never accept that of a child though

Hi Stretford.

"she's GOT to have some sort of problems hasn't she the mother to behave like that?"

I don't know. You're involved in Homestart, so I suspect you're better qualified than me to take a guess.

But I suppose the only thing I would say is that it would be quite hard for her to show much less respect for her neighbours. And I'd argue there has to be a balance. If it's clear this behaviour is a symptom of other issues, then of course those problems should be addressed.

But in saying that, this woman's neighbours have the right not to have stones thrown at their houses.

I do think that eviction has to be a genuine consequence for behaviour of that sort. Like others have said, it's the end of quite a lengthy process, it doesn't just happen like that.

Peachy - that's why I was careful to refer to people that don't work as a lifestyle choice. Not those in genuine need that would prefer to be self supportive.

But you've got a situation now where kids don't bother with education because they have no intention of working, because they know they don't have to.

Too many people know how to milk the system. How to get to the top of the housing list, how to get disability allowance etc. You've now got 2 or 3 generations where nobody in the house has EVER worked.

As much as I hate to say it because I know how feckin' ranting and right wing it sounds (and I'm somebody that spent 7 years of my childhood in a council flat) but there's now no shame in being unemployed or having tearaway kids - whereas in my mum and gran's generation there was.