To disagree with small children recieving communion or being confirmed

[Reallytired]

I go to a church of England church and recently it has started allowing children as young as five to take communion. The children in question have attended a set of classes for a term before doing so. They then had a special service (within the main family service), which wasn't actually a confirmation service, but very similar.

The priest asked a five year old boy what made him decide he was ready for communion. The little boy was speechless desperately shy. I doult he had any clue whatsoever what the sacrement of communion is. Yes, Jesus may have welcomed little children, but were there any small boys at the last supper?

What annoyed me was that my son was asked whether he wanted to prepare for communion by the priest when the priest damm well knows my views on the subject. I feel like changing church.

I think its better to wait until people have some maturity and life experience before taking the sacrement of holy communion. I have told my son that he will have to wait until he is sixteen years old to get confirmed. (Ie. when he is an age that he can actually make a decision independently.)

YABU, it is no different to any other decision that a parent takes on behalf of their child before the child is able to express a preference.

Specifically in a religious context, how much understanding is needed? How much understanding does God require of us? Not much, I think.

I don't see that a child receiving communion during the service is particularly different from infant baptism or taking children to church services at all (though I agree it was inappropriate of the vicar to ask your DC when he knows your views).

At that stage, the child is there, and taking part, as part of an adult believer's family. That does not mean they are being forced to do something, or to make a committment to something.

It's not saying they have to memorise those things - it's saying back in the 1600s they were expected to do that, but nowadays they take a different approach...

Methodist here and though we do baptise infants, none of mine have been baptised - we had a special service of thanksgiving instead though - because we want them to be able to make the decision themselves. DH was baptised at about 10, me at 18. DD 9 yo is already asking about it and we believe she is mature enough to decide what she wants. If she can say what she believes and why she wants it, who are we to say why she can't? In the new testament people simply had to acknowledge jesus is Lord, and repent of their sins.no minimum age stipulated!

Some of you would have fainted the day a little 4 yr old, too busy at play in the creche corner to go up to the communion rail with his mum for a blessing, shouted over the bowed heads of the congregation "bring me back a bit of bread mum!" - and she did. So what. EVERYONE smiled, not a single soul minded or thought it was inappropriate.

My DS refers to "is it a service where we go in (from sunday school) for a "pat on the head" !"

The minute the children WANT to receive, they should be allowed to, because otherwise all they know is that they are excluded. What next - too young to recite the lords prayer without having done a mini course on what it all means?

I was really upset at a catholic friends wedding, to be told by the priest that only catholics could receive communion. Only her and her parents and sibs went up. I was one of the very few christians there and would have liked to support her, however, I accept that it means different thijgs to different churches and that is where problems lie over children too.

You've also missed out this part from an earlier page which I think is relevant here -www.cofe.anglican.org/lifeevents/baptismconfirm/sectiona.html"First, in most dioceses provision now exists, subject to agreement by the bishop, the parish priest and the congregation or the Parochial Church Council, for children who have not been confirmed to receive Holy Communion after appropriate instruction provided that this is in the context of a programme of continuing nurture leading to confirmation"

So, no-one is expecting children who are admitted to communion to have the level of understanding which would be expected when they are confirmed.

I was confirmed as an adult, and no-one expected me to learn the 10 commandments etc by heart. I can say the Lords Prayer by heart, as I've said it so often, ditto now the Nicene Creed on a good day. I've never even read through the Book of Common Prayer Catechism.

I agree with loobeylou. But I was brought up a Methodist and confirmed at 12 and have very low church leanings. I love High Church words and Low Church attitudes.

Hedgewitch, I wasn't talking about how much understanding was needed to comply with the Church's rules, but how much understanding is required by God. A sincere heart and a love of God is all that is required, I think.

In the 1600s they had to memorise these things because they were unlikely to be able to read them - so to have the thoughts and ideas accessible to them at any time, they needed them in their heads. Now we can just read.

hedgewitch said -And i forgot this bit from point 5.

"In The Book of Common Prayer it is envisaged that this preparation will take the form of learning by heart the Apostles Creed, the Ten Commandments, the Lord?s Prayer, and The Book of Common Prayer Catechism. Today a more comprehensive course of preparation is felt to be appropriate."

How many children can memories and understand those things?

But how many ADULTS can - do we really exclude those who have learning difficulties, are illiterate etc, but who understand enough about the fact they want to belong to a warm and friendly family of Jesus to want to be baptised into it themselves.

remember what Jesus said about not seeing his kingdom except we become as a little child?

the "laws" are the church laws, based on power, control, sexism too - they are not the laws of jesus

I don't think a good memory is a requirement for confirmation. I never had to learn any catechism or the apostles creed when I was confirmed.

What I do think is necessary is a bit of life experience, and prehaps to have experienced having your faith tested.

"According to the Canons (laws) of the Church of England those who receive Holy Communion in the Church of England should either have been confirmed in the Church of England or should be ready and desire to be confirmed. "

I agree with this. I don't think that anyone has full undertanding of communion. However a basic general knowledge of christianity is helpful.

I remember my little brother drawing a picture of a man in an aeroplane. My parents asked him why he had drawn a man in an aeroplane and my brother replied "Its a picture of a Pontius Pilate". I think he was about six or seven years old at the time.

If a child does not understand the Easter Story then I doult they would have the slightest clue what commmunion represented. Surely a blessing is more appriopate.

I think you are projecting your own experience of a faith you no longer hold, Hedgewitch.

You seem to have ignored my last two posts. And Loobylou answered the queries in your last post before you asked them.

Loobylou is a Methodist. And I was confirmed as a Methodist (which is acceptable to the CofE for communion purposes) but currently worship in CofE.

No-one is saying that a child under 10 should pledge themselves to anything. One of the reasons for admitting children to communion (which does not require a committment) is that in many cases children were either asking to be confirmed, or being pushed towards it by parents, so that the child could receive communion at an earlier age. The point of admitting them to communion before confirmation is so that confirmation takes its proper place as an adult statement of faith when the person reaches an age at which they can understand what they are saying. Late teens upwards.

My DS receives communion. He has never made any commitment or promise to a bishop, and I'm not sure whether he's ever going to make any. But he's not excluded from taking full part in church services just because he hasn't decided that for himself yet.

I hold to believers baptism etc. I think people should know what they're getting into before they're baptized, and that they should take communion when they actively believe the neccessary. Now, I don't know what that age is. My 7 year old has been very serious about her faith since she was 5. Her sister isn't nearly so fussed at all.

If I held to the Orthodox pre-reformation beliefs about sacraments, then it would make sense for a child, baptized into the faith, to partake of a sacrament which gave them 'spiritual life'.

But it seems that the CofE sort of squishes those two positions together, and that's where the difficulties arise.

I think that ThePregnantHedgeWitch makes some valid points. Just because she is a pagan doesn't mean she can't make a contribution. The majority of children want to please their parents and that is not what confirmation should be about.

I also think ThePregnantHedgeWitch was lucky not to get bullied into confirmation like my parents did.

Our church has seperate classes for adults and children who are getting confirmed. I find this is ludiculous. Surely if you are either an adult or not.

The church I attend used not to allow communion/ confirmation before the age of 13, but its changed its policy. I feel torn, because I really do not want to change churches as I have lots of friends there.

Hedgewitch - what would your old church's view have been on people with learning difficulties? Would they have allowed them to be confirmed without that memorising and level of understanding? Genuine question BTW - it's one of the issues that led my denomination to look into the whole area of communion, along with unconfirmed visitors from other denominations being allowed to take communion.

They went back to basics of theology and concluded that the only requirement was baptism, and church policy was then modified to follow that.

good point AMumInScotland makes, that by allowing littlies to share in communion, they are in fact possibly postponing the age at which they will be confirmed.

sorry hedge, but can't see why you're so bothered about a religion you have said you don't hold - if my DD wants to say she believes in all the major parts of the christian story, and wants to be baptised/confirmed/take communion, we will let her.

she has already shown a much better understanding of Christianity than most adults I know. She takes her own money in for children in need day at school etc, and aged 7 when asked at school to write completing the sentence "If I won a million pounds I would..." she wrote this
"I would give half of it to a childrens hospital and the other half to the starving people in africa"

ALL her peers had written purely about mountains of toys, sweets, trips to Disney land etc - when shown hers at parents evening I welled up. she has PROVEN she understands what it is to be a Christian.

infant baptism in the CofE by parents who see it just as a naming ceremony, and excuse for presents and a big party,or ticket into a certain school, are a far more worrying issue IMO