Why are the most aggressive children always the least supervised?

[JoyS]

sigh Just a little moan here, nothing I can really do about the situation.

We (DD1, DD2 & I) go to a small playgroup once a week. One of the boys is quite aggressive and physical. Which, you know, isn't really a big deal, it's a phase, he's got a 6-month-old baby brother, he's only 3, my DD1 is no angel, whatever. But his mum is always on the other side of the room!

Yesterday DD1 and another boy were playing nicely with a castle set, we were making up stories with the little animals and whatnot, it was very pleasant. The aggressive boy came over and instead of joining in just started wrecking the place, got in the middle of the castle set up with a large block and just demolished it. When he had ruined it to his satisfaction, he went off to play with the farm set. Where was his mum when he was menacing the other kids with a big wooden block? Talking to the group leader somewhere else.

Other playgroups we've been to have had the same issue: there's ALWAYS one kid who hits/shoves/grabs/etc and is completely unsupervised. Eventually the mum comes over and says something like 'oooh darling you know you shouldn't hit the smaller children' and buggers off again. DD1 went through a hitting phase, I watched her like a hawk to make sure she didn't hurt anyone.

There's only so many times you can say to someone else's kid 'We don't hit' 'please don't push' etc before his/her carer needs to get involved! Aaargh.

Aaargh.

I used to notice this.

Seems a bit of a "chicken and egg" situation, really. The child isn't properly supervised and behaves wildly and aggressively. The parent can't deal with the hassles of controlling/disciplining their child...

Seems a shame tyo me that it's no longer acceptable to tell someone else's child off in any way.

I know how you feel! My DS2 (who I suspect has Aspergers - am in the process of trying to get a dx)was never sociable at playgroups, and always insisted on me joining in with his games. It was so upsetting for him when another child toddled up and either wrecked his game, tried to take the toy or (even worse for him!) tried to join in! It's all part of the process of kids learning how to share/interact with others etc though.

If it is the same boy each time, perhaps you can speak to the playgroup leader - maybe she is already aware of the problem and can have a word with the mum? Maybe the mum is worn out with her boisterous boy and lets him get on with it at playgroup so she can have a rest - she might not realise it's such a problem.

What scarlet said - catch-22 situtation, child gets away with such behaviour because parent is "absent", parent is absent because can't cope with child's behaviour. Nightmare. I can't agree with being able to tell someone else's child off in any way though Scarlet - my hackles are up immediately if anybody speaks to DS in such a way (even DP), but that's just me (and he is a good kid, honestly).
Totally agree with your frustration JoyS.

It is frustrating but as everyone says they are aggressive purely because the parent doesn't supervise.Chicken and egg.

they're not always

I watch as ds1 like a hawk, 24 / 7

Are you sure mum want talking to supervisor about something important- I know it's almost de rigeur to say it but say, an adhd dx?

not quite true IME

there are usu other children just as 'unsupervised' but because they are playing quietly you don't notice that their mum has pottered off to have a cup of tea / talk to the playleader etc

and for every boisterous unsupervised grabber there is at least one being held firmly by the backs of their dungarees to prevent them dismembering everyone else

personally it's the shriekers I have trouble with

I can understand your frustrations in your situation, but it's not fair to generalise. My almost 4 yr old son is easily the most 'troublesome', often aggressive child at playgroups etc, and I watch him like a hawk most of the time. Occasionally, we have been at softplay and I have seen him playing nicely, breathed a sigh of relief and sat down to enjoy my coffee and chat with a friend...only for him to bop some other kid on the head 5 mins later while I was 'leaving him unsupervised'. It;s one of the reasons I don't bother with such places any more. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Sit down for a few minutes and your bad mum...follow them around like hawks and it spoils the fun.

I am all for other parents having a word, actually, whether it's telling my little boy 'hitting isn't nice, I'm going to tell your mummy' etc or coming over and telling me my son probably needs a word from me. I don't like situations where grown adults are shouty/mean to my children, which has happened on a few occasions (he was called a 'nasty little boy' by some mad old bint in the doc's surgery a few weeks ago for taking another child's toy. I don't think that's acceptable, sorry).

Agree MrsBadger, but if your own DC was playing up and/or destroying something lovingly built by another LO, wouldn't you be aware of it and straight over to sort it out.

BTW - I realise my post above makes me sound like one of those annoying mothers that never sees any wrong in their DCs. Not true at all - but if there's any disciplining to be handed out, it's my job nobody elses. That's all I meant.

p.s. my son is being assessed for ADHD, actually. But if you're talking about younger toddlers - 2-3 yr olds, I don't think a diagnosis matters that much. Lots of children of that age are boisterous, hitters, biters etc.

I wpouldn't dream of telling someone else's child off - but I think, as an adult and fellow parent, I should be able to.

"When I were a lass" an adult could tell off a child for misbehaving without censure - and children would be expected to take note. I believe very much in the sentiment that "it takes a village to raise a child" and think much of the anti-social behaviour that seems so prevalent these days is, in least in part, a result of the reluctance of people to be seen to "interfere" in a child's upbringing. But I know that's going off into a whole new issue.

And if someone else told of one of my children? Then that would depend on what they had done and how they were addressed. I try to teach my children to show respect to adults - but I guess we all bristle when our parenting skills are called into question. Fortunately, I can't think of any occasion when this has happened (except for my mum telling my dd1 off - wholly unnecessarily, IMO. But that's my mum for you. We don't get on, sadly).

I find myself in the same dilemma with my 2.6 son MrsMattie. Because he can be perfectly behaved some days and then the next day he won't stop pushing/whacking, I never know whether to follow him round or not. Some mums look at me like I am mad if I do, so I often give him the benefit of the doubt until he does push, and then I am right by him for the whole rest of the day.

I am happy for others to tell my DS off if he does something unkind and I am not there.

If the child's mum was on top of the situation I wouldn't mind so much. Plenty of kids hit and grab but when the carer is there monitoring it it's not so bad and doesn't get to the point of one child completely destroying what others were doing.

Also, I'd like to sit down with a cup of tea or have a chat with the leader too! Why should I have to supervise when my DD is playing nicely and could be left to it for a few minutes?

Ithink tbh parents supervise their children more when they are concerned about them getting hurt.Beefy Burts mum doesn't have that worry and so doesn't bother supervising.

I think that's completely untrue@Katiestar. I think if you have a hitter/biter etc you tend to watch more, I honestly do. I also have a 'Beefy Burt' and he is constantly getting into scrapes - some of his own making (being aggressive or disruptive) and some because he is huge for his age, so a scrape between him and some angelic little blonde darling is always going to end up with him in trouble with someone, even if 'little angel girl' egged it on. He also doesn't have s sly or manipulative bone in hsi body, so will never say 'she did it' or 'he hit me first', and will immediately confess to any wrongdoing, unlike some other, more wily kids

Also, some acknowledgement from the carer, even saying something like 'he got out of the wrong side of the bed today' helps enormously and it's so rare.

TBH I wouldn't acknowledge- my experience is that you can't tell which parent will threaten you suddenly so I remove child, amke child apologise to child, then leave.

Lots of reasons:

The parent thinks it is cute

The parent doesn't know how to discipline

The parent is in denial

The parent uses ineffective discipline (eg shouting) and then gives up

The parent doesn't care enough to spend the time with her child.

The parent's own emotional needs are greater than the child's.

etc etc

When I run a M&T group, if there was a child running riot, and the parent seemingly ignoring, one of the leaders/helpers would go and play with the child in positive way. Another would try to befriend the mother. We would assume that the mum is struggling to cope and needs people to come alongside her. We would never instruct her to take care of her child.

Wow Peachy, what playgroups do you go to? Can't say I've ever felt threatened by another parent.

There's one at our playgroup that is always calling (from a distance) "DS, DS don't do that. Put it down. Come here. "

I don't think she realises that two year olds don't do verbal instructions very well if it concerns something they don't want to do, and certainly can't cope with long strings of instructions. I keep wishing she'd realise she needs to go over and show him what she means.

The upshot is that as you hear her voice calling a lot to no avail you tend to think the child is badly behaved whereas in fact he's no worse than any of the others.

Mrs mattie I am sure you are a good and responsible parent.But I think it stands to reason that as a child grows older and more assertive people don't supervise them to the same extent.I mean would yopu supervise a 4 yr old at a soft play centre as closely as you would an 18m old ? No because they can look after themselves better

Joy its a school now, and yes if you have a child who is habitually aggressive there can be repercuissions I am afraid.

It's a posh one btw, CofW, very sought after. Just in case anyone was thinking 'well thats inner city schools for you' . No, that's inappropriate integration for you.

Generally, I would agree with scarlets 'chicken and egg' observation above. Often even if the parent notices they do very little or nothing to point out to their child that its behaviour is not acceptable. Obviously there are exceptions tho where a parent is mortified by their childs behaviour and despite a lot of effort to correct the child continues to cause trouble. In these circs i feel very sorry for the parent concerned and am grateful that my children are generally well behaved.

I will however admit that i have 'told off' someone elses child at a playgroup/play centre. Once a little boy (about 2 years)hit my dd (who was about 15 months at the time) repeatedly with a toy. I told him to stop and that he was a naughty boy. His mum came over and could only agree that he was badly behaved! I did not feel guilty for doing this. i was not going to stand there and watch as my dd cried!

Sorry, I thought you were talking about big/strong children, not older children@katiestar.

To be honest, I don't bother with softplay anymore. Someone always gets hurt, and if you are the parent of a big, boisterous boy, it;s just not worth the grief...

Maybe your two year old doesn't respond to verbal instructions, BS, but mine does. He knows full well what is required. I'm not well and sometimes can't move very fast so I call to him as I'm going over. As far as I'm concerned that's the sensible approach. He knows I've seen his misbehaviour and usually starts behaving properly. DS2 can cope with pretty long verbal instructions. How do you know this woman's son can't?

As for destroying things and knocking them over, as far as I can see, it seems to be a developmental stage many children go through. I've seen it happen loads of times. I wouldn't consider it "bad behaviour" in an under two, and some children carry on doing it until they are four. It's not comparable with hitting or biting.

"DS2 can cope with pretty long verbal instructions. How do you know this woman's son can't?"

... errr because he doesn't.

I agree I put my post badly. Of course some 2 year olds respond to verbal instructions.

But I think it's fair to say that it is quite normal for a two year old child to ignore verbal instructions if they do not wish to obey them.

In that instance the only real option is to go over and make sure they do what you ask rather than continue to call/shout in the hope that the tenth time you say it, there will be obedience. Personally if I am not being listened to after the second time, I take action.

I wasn't insulting your parenting, ThingOne, or even this particular lady's. I was pointing out that if you are hoping your child will respond to verbal instructions, and having no luck, people tend to think that your child is badly behaved when they are not.

(My perfectly bright but extremely lazy eight and a half year old sometimes cannot cope with three instructions in a row, eg: get your bag, put on coat and shoes and go to the loo. One will get forgotten. He certainly would not have coped with a string like: (what did I put?) Stop it, put it down and come here at 2)