to be appalled when 'intelligent' people speak of 'pikeys' and ' gypos'

[debs40]

I live in a small provincial cathedral city. It is a white, Daily Mail/Torygraph reading kind of place.

OK, I can sort of live with that even if it is all church schools and 11+. I've lately been taken aback by the easy resort to using terms such as 'chav', 'pokey' or 'gypo' on relation to anyone who seems less well off or intelligent. These people are police officers, teachers or immigration officers too!

AIBU to think this is dated and offensive? No wonder. Jimmy Carr always has a tour date here!

thanks for the giggle, is it Gloucester by any chance?

My great great grandmother was a Romany, who had a caravan on her own land and was quite well off and never offered to tarmac a drive in her life .

My son has SN and my mother has recently become disabled and is now wheelchair bound.

I think Jimmy Carr can be funny, I think the cadbury's ad is a tourettes tickers dream, and I think my mum has by now heard every one leg joke going

I think the daily mail is the same as ALL the other papers some truth some not, I also think some people over react to some un- truths and some over react to the truth because the fact there ARE benefit scroungers who take it as a life style choice and there ARE feral youths on the streets killing people for a bottle of wine and there IS a lower moral stranded in the world as a whole does not fit in with their happy clappy view of life.

If only Hitler had rounded up Daily Mail readers ............

I agree with you Kimi on the nature of these words. I think these things are important - it's that old Pastor Niemoller saying

The newspaper thing is interesting. I mentioned the DM and DT as context setters - this is a predominantly middle class, right wing town. I made no link between this and people's intelligence! People read the papers which reflect their views on life and are influenced by them too. It's a two way street.It's the reason I read the paper I do.

But, living here, at least you are guaranteed to be able to get your hands on a Guardian every day!

Sorry it was StewieGriffin who made the comments about the use of words not Kimi

Whwether they are a race or not is misleading
surely the point is that they perceived as one and have abuse directed against them in a stereotypical way?

Whether that's accurately termed racism, cultureism, travellerism or just plain effing ansty isn't the point really...

My Great Nan was Roma apparently as well, though there was a bit of stigma so Nan didn't tell Dad much about it.

Same problem here, Peachy. My family were taught to lie for a while (my dad's generation wouldn't have got into school otherwise).

By sorrento on Sat 31-Jan-09 22:39:50

I actually admire them in some ways not getting sucked into the whole mortgage, 2.4 kids, must work 9-5 bollox but it is a choice, they don't have to continue the traditions if they didn't enjoy it. """

And then you go on to say you have never met an Irish traveller.

some Irish Travellers can walk away from their family, but it's not that easy. You admit you are pretty ignorant on the subject so I will tell you a few of things makiing it hard to leave:

firstly, many travellers know few out of their community
the rest of the community is predjudges so makes it hard to join. Where would you go?

secondly, there is high illiteracy rates; very hard to move on when you can't read. Where do you start? (try and get a job, a deposit, look at a map, remember phone numbers...when you can't read)

three, I know women that have been hospilitalised (and one worse ) for trying to leave their violent partner or family members, or either just and it's often not their partner doing the violence but other family members. And woe betide them if they go to the police. Police are hardly sympathetic to the travelling community and nor is the treatment to anyone that goes to them.

four, should you get yourself set up family often turn up to either live with you or take what is 'theirs'.

fifthly, many love the lifestyle, they are proud of it and do not necessarily see what is so great about 'our' isolated lifestyles.

Not always as easy as it seems.

noonki, well, those that fall under your fith point wouldn't want to leave anyway, though, and possibly enjoy most of the traditions, etc...

very true...that's why I'm crap at essays...lose the arguement halfway through

From what i've seen the biggest deterrant to leaving the community i simply that if they buy some land the entire neighbourhood kicks against planning eprmission, they don't count as homeless so can't get a house and they can't settle in anywhere becuase if they park up....

Quite.

Grew up very close to a new permanent site (was built whilst I was in my teens). Wonder if Nobby (by name and nature IMO) is still campaigning outside the poor sod's homes now? probably.

lol noonki...

peachy, I suppose they are kinda stuck between a rock and a hard place, if they want to leave...

true about salisbury being hardened justabout (funnily enough village I grew up near was near Glasto- same scenario?)

The councillor complaining and demonstrating was voted in by just the sort of 'incoming affluents' you describe also.

By Kimi on Sun 01-Feb-09 12:45:37
If only Hitler had rounded up Daily Mail readers ............

Why would Hitler have rounded up DM readers? The Daily Mail openly promoted Hitler and the Nazi party in the 1930s here

and continued its dubious views on the Nazi party well into the 1990's Mail's Nazi Party in 1990s

Although I really don't have anything against DM readers - I was one last week.

Kimi: "If only Hitler had rounded up Daily Mail readers"

Well, that's my mother sorted. Thanks.

It's probably most of our parents sorted, as people get older they get more and more set in their ways and afraid of anything/anybody new.

ManIFeelLikeAWoman on Sat 31-Jan-09 20:40:38
"Because they are not a race.

Not only do they not have "similar traits" or share a nationality"

• the same could be said of the Jews until the creation of the state of Israel; they did not share a nationality and many blond and blue-eyed Jews died in the concentration camps

"they are not all from the same country"- the same was true of the Jews until recently and still is true of many Jews: they, like the gypsies, are the descendants of people who emigrated/were expelled from one country (probably somewhere in India in the case of the gypsies)

"do not share a common culture (hence sub-categories like "new age traveller)"- new age travellers do not count as traveller=gypsies and I have never heard anyone suggest that they should

"do not share common beliefs"- nor do all Englishmen or Swedes (though many Roma, like many Swedes or Englishmen, do)

"do not all speak the same language"- nor did the Jews in Medieval/Early Modern times: Modern Hebrew is a 19th century creation; Jiddisch varied enormously in different countries; many Jews spoke mainly the local language of whatever country they might happen to live in

"do not identify themselves as a race!"- the Roma do, as far as I understand

"What exactly DO they have in their favour for being identified as a race?"- well, whatever it is it was good enough for Hitler

Cory

Excellent points, none of which I would dispute.

You miss, however, MY point which is precisely that the word "traveller" is much wider than the words gypsy, Roma, or indeed Irish traveller. I fully concede that these are racial and ethnic groups and that to abuse them as such is therefore to be racist. I also concede that the Romany peoples, at least, were also murdered by the Nazis.

But the word "traveller" means someone who travels, by implication as a way of life rather than just on holidays. It may mean something more specific to you and to others, but that's what it means to me and that's how I have used it consistently throughout this thread. As such, for me, it does encompass New Age travellers, as well as a rag-tag assortment of layabouts, alongside the distinct cultures you name. Hence my argument that they are not a race.

I have also fully conceded that the word "pikey" is derogatory to those it is addressed to. That's why I don't address it to, or about, Gypsies or Irish travellers based solely on the basis of their ethnicity. I use it to mean an unclean, backward, cynical yokel of unspecified ethnicity. I grant you that that does not make me a nice person but it does not make me a racist either.

As for the origin of the word "pikey" being a description of ethnic Gypsies, that's news to me, but the very fact that it is now used about other travellers proves that that is merely an etymology rather than a specific meaning still in force today.

You can call me what you like, but don't call me a racist, because I am not making, and never have made on this site, a value judgement about any race.

Except for joking the French were technophobes the other day ...

Jimmy Carr is fab and such a friendly man when off stage. (Charlee points towards her profile)

One thing that has always puzzled me (not born in the UK) is that I have come across many people who would not dream of saying anything un-PC about a black or Asian person but have nothing good to say/have vocalised unfounded fears & prejudices about people from traveling communities. Similarly, local papers often print articles & letters full of prejudice about Roma & Irish travelers that they would never print if about other ethnic groups.

Anyone got any ideas on why that is?