To want to bring up my dcs the way I see fit even though we're living in a different culture?

[KTNoo]

We are British but live in North Africa due to work. Because of the crazy roads where we live we have a driver to take us around. He is a lovely, lovely guy who genuinely cares about our 3 dcs and I feel we are lucky to have found him.

Only problem is, he constantly undermines me when I discipline my dcs. I feel that he thinks I am a real witch the way I talk to them and he tells me something to that effect. This happened today. If we are waiting in the car for any reason (e.g. to collect dh from work), driver always lets them toot the horn and generally fiddle with everything, move mirrors, change settings etc. I have asked him not to let them do this but he still lets them. Today I told ds (5) to stop moving the rear view mirror and he started screaming and hitting me. I warned him that if he did that again I was going to put him outside the car while we waited. He did it again so I lifted him out and sat him on the pavement (I was standing there, I wasn't going to leave him on his own). Driver immediately gets out and starts talking in soothing tones to ds, then goes to lift him back into the car. I said to driver that ds was to stay out of the car for now as he had been hitting me and that is not ok. Driver then tried again to appease ds (who is screaming) and I then said he needed to ignore him. He did, but was clearly offended and funny with me for the rest of the day.

I'm just wondering what everyone thinks - I want to be able to discipline my dc but don't want to stomp over a culture that hates to see children crying.

You need to speak to this man about what you are doing re parenting and why you are doing it. Tell him this is the norm where you come from.

Having said that, did you really need to tell him off for letting your DS play with the rear view mirror? If he doesn't mind readjusting it, what seems to be the problem?

Is it really that they don't like to see children crying so they are allowed to do what they want?

It seems to be your driver works for you and is not in any position to tell you how to bring up your child.

I hate to say it, but pick your battles.

I agree with Cote - you are coming across a bit control - freaky.
It could become a problem when your children socialise, you could put other parents' backs out a lot if you behave that way towards their dc.

Rear view mirror was an example, I could let him play with it i suppose. Tooting the horn over and over again does not go down so well when we are back in UK though. He also lets them generally climb all over the car and they have broken stuff doing this, which I really don't think is ok.

He also encourages them to chuck their rubbish out of the car. I am firm about them not doing this, but he tells them it doesn't matter as everyone else does it.

I wouldn't say I'm a control freak but I am quite strict.

ib, we don't really socialise with local kids, only other expats.

It's a difficult balance I'd say. I'd say it depends on how long you are planning to stay, how much you want to feel part of the local community, how much you want your ds to grow into that culture and how well you feel you would be able to get results by following another culture's way of socialising children.

I am Swedish and live in the UK. Ok, smaller differences but still noticeable ones in the way young children are spoken to, how they are disciplined and what is considered polite behaviour for a young child. I have adapted more than I thought I would do (my ways seemed so right to me), because it is beginning to look like we will be staying here, my dcs go to a local school and will feel English as much as Swedish, and I find I can manage by trying to juggle as tactfully as possible.

I think you and your husband need to have a meeting with this man and be very firm and clear that you appreciate what he does for your family and love that he is so connected to the kids then make it very clear that it isn't his place criticize or involve himself in you parenting and you will no longer tolerate it. If you let it go on it will only get worse.

Can't comment on North Africa specifically, but some cultures do really lavish attention on/indulge children. If this is part of the culture, then why not let your children enjoy that? Even if it is to a small degree, and only in the drivers car?

It seems lovely that they have this person in their life - why try and eliminate it?
And I agree, the adjusting the mirror is quite trivial - he is the driver, its his space, if it doesn't bother you, and ds's life isn't in danger, then why worry? Its sweet that he tried to keep your ds occupied.

There is nothing wrong with being strict, I agree with not allowing them to climb around it the car, children need to learn to respect property.

sorry, x post

Cory, I see what you are saying. We lived in other European countries before and I relished some of the differences, so much so that I'm not sure we would fit back into UK easily anymore. We will be here for a few years at the most. I think it's interesting for the children to experience another culture but that's as far as it goes really. It is so different and goes so deep.

purpleduck I do love some aspects of it - in cafes children are made so welcome and they don't mind them running around a bit and making noise. The waiters often take my kids off to show them the live fish waiting to be cooked and leave me to enjoy my coffee!

But the car is our car which we paid for!

YANBU - You need to deal with it. Tell him you don't like it and give him the reasons.

Don't defer to your husband!

I think you will have to have a big run in with your driver which he won't really understand...I would just go with it tbh. He is a nice guy who is lovely with your kids - it may be asking too much of your driver to get him to ignore his own culture in favour of yours.

no. he's the hired help. you appreciate his help, you treat him with respect but you are the employer and how you discipline your children should be respected...only to be interrupted if what you are doing can be seen as abusive.

That's it Podrick - he's such a nice guy but I have to tell him when he's doing something I don't like. And yes we are the employers but I hate the way some of the people treat their employees here. But I will have to say something. Maybe if I treat each incident individually as it arises he will get the idea. Or maybe not.

Sorry if I came across as harsh. I am British and would be uncomfortable if I saw a child being disciplined in such a way.

Your staff are employees, but they are also people and possibly parents. You have a right to tell them to behave as you want, but you cannot help them disliking you if you behave in ways that are not consistent with the way they believe a loving parent would behave. This could make life unpleasant for everyone at home.

Perhaps you could use the opportunity to moderate your attitudes a little bit, and benefit from the experience of living in a different culture that way? For example, suggest that playing with mirrors is fine, but hooting is not as it would not go down well in the UK?

You could also try being didactic with your children in front of him, for example giving your child a lecture about the environmental damage of throwing rubbish (in front of your driver) rather than just telling him not to do it?

We had a situation like you describe in my family at one point - the child concerned (now in her late 20s) still goes and sees the employee concerned. Some of the habits she got from her are awful (eg. eating junk food) but the feeling of unconditional love she received from the old lady is unpayable, and as she has become an adult she has been able to develop her own good habits.

ib

The relationship our driver has with my 3 dcs is excellent, so no concerns there. Sometimes I think they like him so much (ds in particular!) because he never stops them doing anything. But I trust him to pick them up from school etc, and that is a big thing I know.

After the time-out incident today I still felt I had done the right thing making ds get out of the car, even though it was an awkward situation. He was kicking me because I said no to him and did it again after a warning.

I seem to have got through with the rubbish throwing though - ds was recently giving the driver a lecture about it. Nice to know my son occasionally listens to me.

Message withdrawn

Hmm...that's what I'm finding difficult Pitchounette.

Obviously it's not nice to be viewed as nasty cruel mummy but we are only here for a few years and instinctively I have to bring my children up in a way that feels right for me.

There are many situations like this here. dd2(age 2) chucks tantrum in shop because I won't buy sweets. Shop owner hands her said sweets for free. She stops tantrumming and looks smug. I don't mind buying sweets sometimes but not every time we go shopping and definitely not because she has thrown a wobbly. I have dealt with this by not taking her shopping with me whenever possible, but sometimes I have to. Basically she walks into the shop now and announces "lolly". Once I said no thanks and handed back the sweets but I'm not sure if this is seen as bad manners.

It's good idea to make a distinction between cultures but I find this tricky where trashing our car is concerned! I think our driver would listen to my wishes in theory, but I know as soon as any of the dc protested a bit he would just give them whatever they want unless I stepped in.

There are two factors involved here: what you discipline your children about and how you discipline them.

IME Swedish parents don't tend to let their children get away with more than British parents do (certainly much less when it comes to throwing rubbish!), but if you were in a Swedish street and disciplined your child in the way I see so many Mums do in the UK (by yelling at them and threatening to smack their bottoms)- then somebody would almost certainly step in.

Doesn't help with the shop scenario admittedly, but if you could find out how North African parents stop undesirable behaviour (and there must be behaviour that is undesirable even in North Africa) and try to use that method, then maybe that would help.

(I admit that I would have scant sympathy with a British immigrant in Sweden who smacked her child because it was her instinct. Sometimes instincts have to be adapated to what is around you. )

I don't think there is much you can do TBH but grit your teeth and maybe try to explain that you have different rules in the UK and your kids need to be familiar with those.

I used to live in N Africa. It's not that they hate to discipline kids (far from it) its that they discipline them for very different things. Health and personal safety (the car, sweets) are a very low priority for adults and kids alike. You are absolutely howling into the wind over the sweets - as you must surely realise if you live there.

You don't sound as if this is an environment that suits you very well with or without kids - I think that's the real problem. You are not really there by choice.

Out of interest, acinonyx, what do N. Africans discipline for and how do they do it?

Acynonix- that is interesting. I had thought that corporal punishment as a method of discipline for children was quite accepted in N Africa so was a bit confused by the OP but your explanation makes sense. What sort of things do they discipline for then?

great minds blueshoes!