To want to bring up my dcs the way I see fit even though we're living in a different culture?

[KTNoo]

We are British but live in North Africa due to work. Because of the crazy roads where we live we have a driver to take us around. He is a lovely, lovely guy who genuinely cares about our 3 dcs and I feel we are lucky to have found him.

Only problem is, he constantly undermines me when I discipline my dcs. I feel that he thinks I am a real witch the way I talk to them and he tells me something to that effect. This happened today. If we are waiting in the car for any reason (e.g. to collect dh from work), driver always lets them toot the horn and generally fiddle with everything, move mirrors, change settings etc. I have asked him not to let them do this but he still lets them. Today I told ds (5) to stop moving the rear view mirror and he started screaming and hitting me. I warned him that if he did that again I was going to put him outside the car while we waited. He did it again so I lifted him out and sat him on the pavement (I was standing there, I wasn't going to leave him on his own). Driver immediately gets out and starts talking in soothing tones to ds, then goes to lift him back into the car. I said to driver that ds was to stay out of the car for now as he had been hitting me and that is not ok. Driver then tried again to appease ds (who is screaming) and I then said he needed to ignore him. He did, but was clearly offended and funny with me for the rest of the day.

I'm just wondering what everyone thinks - I want to be able to discipline my dc but don't want to stomp over a culture that hates to see children crying.

snap! At least I now know about how they punish.

Sorry, I've not read the whole thread, just the OP. I'll be brief.

Firstly, you don't owe this man an explanation of how you bring up your children. If you think you do, this might indication that you feel a little intimidated, perhaps? You might not feel so in the presence of a Western man, but since African cultures as a whole are almost always very paternalistic, he may communicate in a way that subconsciously makes you place yourself beneath him a little. I only say this because as I (as a British-born African) have observed this in myself. So ask yourself whether this might be the case. It's important that you understand this if you decide to follow my next suggestion, which is:

Lay down the law. Tell him (with NO justification or softening of your words) that YOU are your children's parent, not him. Who does he think he is? I'm sure it's a cultural difference, however you are entitled to bring up your children as you see fit; you're clearly not a malevolent mother who's going to harm them so how dare he intervene? There are too many people in this world who assume that they know child better than their own parents, and by undermining you like this he is damaging your relationship with your children. Are you prepared to allow that? No, of course not, which is why you need to be strong with him. If he doesn't like it, tough shit (by the way I'd have handled the car situation in exactly the same way as you). Never apologise to this man for the parenting decisions you make.

oh, they stop undesirable behaviour by slapping them across the face or screaming at them - well, in the little part of north africa i had my kids in, anyhow.

if it's anything like where we were, best thing for a relaxed life is to get used to turning a blind eye to a lot of things, listen to opinions you disagree with, nod head and ignore whilst smiling politely, and let your kids eat the sweets

Also - you are his boss! Don't forget - you're paying his salary!

Interesting point, MrsG. Would you say the paternalism overrides the employer/employee relationship? Do you think the driver would do the same if it were Mr KTNoo?

it isn't paternalism as such imo, it's the fact that you are the mother and the mother is always to be blamed and found fault with and criticised (oh ho, maybe I have some issues I'm projecting onto this thread ). don't worry though - if it was the father, there would always be someone on hand to ask 'but where is the mother' if he was doing anything wrong - ie pretty much anything he was doing. ok, speaking only for the little place I lived in, perhaps not true for you ktnoo, but it's a community kind of place where everyone has the right to comment on how you do pretty much everything. has it's up and down sides but best to accept and get on with it. smile and ignore. smile and ignore

Blueshoes, good question. Without knowing the context intimately I can only guess, but I reckon the answer is yes. I'm sure he means well, as well, but I'd bet you 1 billion Tunisian dollars (or dinarii or whatever the currency is) that Mr KTNoo gets the golden child treatment.

MrsKT Noo, on that point your secret weapon is this: when you're a foreigner people make lots of exceptions for your 'weird foreign ways', so if I were you I'd promptly develop some rock-solid 'weird forrin ways' about me and tell the rest of them (politely, of course, but firmly) to take a running jump.

morocco, sounds like a lot for a mother to swallow.

hence the slight bitter tone to my post perhaps blueshoes

yep, the 'weirdy furrin ways' lets you do your own thing without anyone taking offense

God, morocco, paternalism is rife in Africa! There are, of course, strong women, but IME they mostly have to be so in a devious way when dealing with men; they can't behave as their equals. I remember when I used to teach English I gently ribbed one of my (much younger) male, Moroccan students and he, disliking even a bit of gentle mocking, responded by raising his hand as if to give me a hefty back-handed slap! I was so I didn't know what to say. If it had been now, though, mark my words...

Well I'm no expert and it was before I had dd (but I still have friends with kids there). Corporal punishment is common - as it is in most of the world. Girls and boys are often disciplined differently and indulged in overlapping ways. In some ways, children are very indulged.

One major problem is that what we would see as interfering is also commonplace and considered normal - in fact you might be considered very aloof and stand-offish if you didn't. It is totally normal to put food in a child's mouth - in fact it's common with adults (which did used to annoy me). The boundaries are totally different. There is an up side to that too - people are extremely helpful and never stand by if they think you need help. Unfortunately - helpful can easily morph into interfering.

''everyone has the right to comment on how you do pretty much everything.''

Absolutely

acinonyx

ooh, i'm reminiscing now

don't get me wrong, mrsgroucho, if I may call you that, it's not that I don't think it exists, just that a female cleaner (for example) would probably have reacted the same as the male driver. community parenting and all that. mind you, that might be because of the 'foreigner' element to it as well, can't see driver being the same with an employer of same nationality

Ah, yes. The good old community parenting model - both you (morocco - and yes, you may call me that!) and acinonyx make some salient points on that matter. Much as I love many aspects of the emphasis on community in African cultures, I'm still ever so jolly thankful my folks decided to settle in the UK before starting a family!

this has brought back some memories!just think ktnoo, one day you could be in a damp cold country chuckling away about the times you used to get told off for not letting your kids play with traffic

(not sure if that will have cheered you up, sorry)

Wrt the rubbish-throwing in street issue. I remember being in the car with a very good friend and she stopped to throw a bag of rubbish onto the curb. I started to protest and she just turned to me and said sternly 'You're not in England now Acinonyx', dumped and drove on. No doubt that bag would be gone within 5 minutes - to be recycled by 'the rubbish people' who live off the rubbish.

Ah those were the days. Actually, I really miss being over there.

I'm genuinely not sure what to say or think, Acinonyx!

This may sound mad - but when the plane used to touch down after a trip home I would feel as though I could kiss the ground I loved living there so much.

It's hard to explain....

Sorry, where was it you lived (or have I missed this somewhere earlier in the thread?). Am intrigued to know what aspects of it you adored. I think living abroad is a fantastic thing to do and everyone should do it at some point in their lives!

I was in Cairo. I just loved the 'otherness' of it and the heavy antiquity. I've lived/worked/visited in many other places but there is something about the middle east that suits me even while some things are so irritating. I lived in southern Africa and enjoyed that - but it didn't click with me in quite the same way.

I have a big soft spot for places with a strong medieval feel to them (Damascus, Jerusalem - no irony intended..). And the culture is very complex and engaging - very different.

Didn't love the food though - except kusheri. And it is pretty disastrous healthwise.

Nothing particularly to add; reading with interest as have a Scandinavian FIL who apparently told DP & siblings that, for example, "you don't have to do what the teacher tells you". (Luckily DP is a line-toeing sort who would have always done what teacher told him....) Am a bit worried about being undermined - though guess will have to conceive first before this becomes an issue......

Nip this in the bud. I haven't read all the thread but you have to stop it now! My DH is Moroccan and i am horrified by the way that children are indulged over there, especially little boys!!! They are often really spoilt in terms of discipline and allowed to get away with murder. My DH is a wonderful man but I see a lot of selfishness at times and expectation that he will be indulged, and he's a grown man. I know I'm going to have issues with my kids and the Gparents/aunts on his side because they are bound to think I'm an evil witch. I don't mind them being indulged if we are just there for a holiday but he's doing it on a daily basis so it could have a lasting impact.

Could your DH speak to him? (although you don't say if he's north african too and if he is - there's no chance of that )

Oh and re the sweets - never refuse them but take them off her and put them in your pocket 'for later'. Then smile and thank the shopkeeper. It is incredibly rude to refuse food of any sort - I've been told off for this by my DH, you must take a taste even if you put it in your bag for later!

Would it be possible to tell the dc (say the 5yo who was misbehaving in the car) that you will be taking these things up with them back at home, if they disobey you in the car in front of other people? So you have delayed telling off/sanctions, which isn't ideal but my 5yos could cope with that. We've had to do it with family we share lots of childcare with but who have very different styles of parenting/treating children.

And it wouldn't cause the problems with the driver in quite the same way.