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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think that actually, i am the lesser hypocrite here (church schools, sorry!)

103 replies

LucyEllensmummy · 14/01/2009 14:12

OK so, I have just submitted my application for my DD to go to the local church school. My reasons are as follows. 1. It is BY FAR the best school in the local area. 2. I am a catholic and want my DD to go to a catholic school and three, and possibly the most important reason 3. My father, who died before he met DD would have been thrilled for her to go to that school and have the whole churchy upbrining.

So, here is the difficult bit - I am a lapsed catholic. I did go to church for just over a year when DD was born, but as she got older the services got too much for her. I could have started going by now yes, but i have to tell you - our local priest could BORE for England, most parishoners agree with me. My DP is not catholic, hes atheist. We are not married.

Now, i totally accept that practising catholics are given priority over non practising catholics. I had the choice to go to church every sunday when actually i would rather not, just because i want dd to go the school. I chose not to do this. I think the admissions critirea is that, PRacticing catholics then non practicing catholics, non catholic but attend different church and then non church goers (this alongside catchment area etc).

So, was having conversation with another mum who is non catholic who got quite cross that my DD would take priority over her DD because we are catholic and she is not, even though they go to church - fair enough, but she has made it clear that she "trudges to church every week so she can get her child into the school". As a catholic i think she underestimates the difference between catholic and non catholic christianity, and she is only taking her child to church to get her into the school anyway. Never mind that we can hear the church/school bells from our house which is a 5 minute walk from the school and she lives in the catchment area of a totally fine school, but a 15 minute car journey to the catholic school.

The school does have to take a proportion of non catholics anyway so what her problem is im not really sure...

OP posts:
Original poster
LucyEllensmummy · 14/01/2009 14:14

and now i have to go and get him to sign my form and im properly scared

OP posts:
Lauriefairycake · 14/01/2009 14:19

I don't understand your friend - she's not catholic but wants her child to go to a catholic school.

As for who's the lesser hypocrite - difficult call You are relying on your lapsed Catholicism and doing nothing whereas she is putting up with doing an activity she hates.

The simplest solution would be no church schools and church and state can be separate.

Since we ain't got that I ain't judging either of you

lalalonglegs · 14/01/2009 14:20

Sorry, I'm with the other woman (and I am a practising Catholic); I don't think there is a huge difference between Catholicism and, say, Anglicanism and she is the practising Christian. "She is only taking her child to church to get her into the school anyway" , you're not even managing that.

donnie · 14/01/2009 14:21

oh dear...the moral is - never EVER tell other parents how or what you intend to do to get your child into the school(s) of your choice!

Original poster
LucyEllensmummy · 14/01/2009 14:21

I don't understand your friend - she's not catholic but wants her child to go to a catholic school.

If you lived here, you would understand!

OP posts:
VinegarTits · 14/01/2009 14:21

If she is only going to church so her dc can go to that school, then why doesnt she just convert to the catholic church?

lalalonglegs · 14/01/2009 14:22

Agree, Laurie*, I would prefer there not to be faith schools - it would make everything fairer.

donnie · 14/01/2009 14:24

lucyellen - do you mean that your friend is pretending to be religious or that she is C of E ( or another branch of Christianity) ?

TallulahToo · 14/01/2009 14:25

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Original poster
LucyEllensmummy · 14/01/2009 14:26

I do take that on board lalalonglegs, which is why i accept that practicing catholics get priority - and that is how it works. I most likely will take DD to church when she can understand why she has to stand there for an hour doing the whole stand up sit down kneel down turn around ritual that is the Sunday Mass. It has always been my intention to take her to church once she is at school.

But to take your child to church every week when you dont want to be there i can't see the point of it.

To be entirely fair, i think both of our children will get in as for some reason this year is one of a low birthrate.

I am willing to accept that my child may not get in, and take my chances on catchment area. But i think going to church to get your child into a school is more hypocritical than doing what you would normally do and playing the addmisions lottery.

OP posts:
sunnygirl1412 · 14/01/2009 14:27

I think that you are being more honest, LucyEllensMummy. You are not lying on your form, nor will you be attending a church simply as a means to get your child into the school of your choice.

You are not falsifying anything as far as I can see - you are from a catholic family (if I have read your OP correctly) and have been a churchgoer though you are lapsed now.

Good luck with your application.

stillstanding · 14/01/2009 14:27

I'm not sure either of you are covering yourself in glory but if I had to choose I think I would say that she is the lesser hyprocrite.

Am quite surprised that lapsed Catholics take precedence over practising Christians actually. What exactly is a lapsed Catholic anyhow? It's not like Judaism where you are racially Jewish iyswim.

Is it just that if you happened to be Christened in a Catholic church? In which case very, very arbitrary that your DD gets to go over her DD when she is actually actively practising her Christian faith imo.

GrimmaTheNome · 14/01/2009 14:27

I don't think you are being a hypocrite - you're just able to take advantage of the rules as they stand. You didn't make the rules, you're not bending them and you're not doing anything you're uncomfortable with.

That those rules exist in the first place... well, there have been plenty of threads about that!

LiffeyKidman · 14/01/2009 14:31

I don't understand your point at all tbh.

You want to take all the christianity out of catholicism, and reduce it to a bureaucratic hierarchy, and that's just for the congregation......

A catholic school is entitled to offer places according to its own criteria (something which I completely accept, I have my dc1 down for a catholic secondary school).

We will be lucky if we get a place. That's all it will be. Luck.

I was lucky that my parents brought me to church (in terms of school entrance) so it wasn't difficult for me to get children into a c of E school. It was easy because that's my background.

BUT.... should a child be rewarded by the church-attendance of her parents and grandparents? Maybe. Maybe not.

If a school gives priority to a child from a catholic background who never goes to mass, as opposed to a church-going child from a c of E background, then that's their perogative, but if anybody sits on the sidelines and yells PROPER ORDER, then I think they have forgotten that catholicism is just a branch of Christianity. It's not supposed to supersede it or make it obsolete.

beansontoast · 14/01/2009 14:32

I am sort of the same as you (lapsed catholic in my twenties,live near my brilliant old school,dp is baptised catholic but now considers himself athiest)...but i did get around to going to mass for a bit when ds was two and then again when he was four.

initially i went to raise my profile...i felt fraudulent and inferior.

try and go on your own for a while...explain to the priest that you dont want to bring dd for whatever reason.

Now that ds has started school i take him to mass every sunday and i/we quite like it (but our priest is funny relevant and inspiring)

you will feel part of the community and you can stop feeling like a hypocrite.

lecture over x

stillstanding · 14/01/2009 14:35

Liffey, don't you think it's far more arbitrary to award a place to a person with a certain "background" then to a person practising the faith (or a similar faith - I see no big distinction between Cat and CoE) of the school?

beansontoast · 14/01/2009 14:35

stillstanding...being baptised catholic leaves an indelible mark on your soul.it is true.my priest told dp in answer to some notion dp had that he was'nt catholic anymore

stillstanding · 14/01/2009 14:40

Ah, I get it now - does it show up on those UV scanners? How handy ...

TallulahToo · 14/01/2009 15:50

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Original poster
LucyEllensmummy · 14/01/2009 16:08

I agree with everyone here actually, to a degree, but this person doesn;t have any faith, she is not CoE, thats my point, she goes to get her child into the school, she freely admitted that!!! Yes, i fully accept that, i am being hypocritical although i honestly do want my DD to go to a church school and i do intend to take her to church when she is old enough to go to church. I have no desire to go to church on my own. I have just seen the priest who was a bit offish with me and said that he couldnt sign me as practicing and i said, thats fine, i understand, i do. He signed to say that DD is baptised. It was on HIS persausion that i got DD baptised and am sending her to the school. I did feel uncomfortable with it, but funnily enough his only sarcastic comment was that im not producing anymore children!

So, i'll take my chances with everyone else and see how it goes. i have a second choice which i am happy with too.

I don't think that you have to present yourself in a church every week to be a catholic, and whoever said that if catholicism can be measured by teh amount of self loathing and guilt you have as an adult, im a fully paid up member with a VIP pass.

The sense of community is exactly what i want for my DD, that and the better secondary school and academic record displayed from the school - am i wrong to want the best education for my DD that i can get?

OP posts:
Original poster
LucyEllensmummy · 14/01/2009 16:13

thats the thing beansontoast, i actually am quite fond of our priest but he is sooo old school and spouts a load of irrelevent codswallop that whenever i went to church on a sunday i would glaze over and actually come out having zoned out and thinking, great, communion, we can go now - wooohoo, cappuccino in the cafe here we come! Whenever the standin preist would be there, he would be more up to date, interesting to listen to and actually made me leave church thinking about what he said. He is still very old school and i think the catholic church needs to buck up its ideas but thats another thread. It makes such a difference. That and the fact that every time we went to church he would put pressure on us to get married and it caused a big rift between DP and myself!

I think it is fair that lapsed catholics take priority over non practising catholics - my parents didnt take me to church until i was about 5 and our weekends are precious i want to spend it together not separately

OP posts:
TallulahToo · 14/01/2009 16:13

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Original poster
LucyEllensmummy · 14/01/2009 16:15

When he asked me how DP was and have i persuaded him to think about getting married, i was half tempted to say, oh yes, hes fine, but hes converted to Islam

OP posts:
MrsMattie · 14/01/2009 16:17

I don't see see your point. Lapsed, Non, whatever. Either you are a Catholic or you aren't.

Flibbertyjibbet · 14/01/2009 16:18

I am lapsed catholic and we just moved house so that the nearest school was the very good non-church school! (ex convent school pupil here).

SIl on the other hand has never been to church in her life but has been going to church for the past year and just had her two dd's baptised catholic. For the schools. If she can make all that effort every weekend, contribute to the church community and get her children into the only decent school near where she lives, then I say good luck to her.

However if I wanted mine to go to a church school, should I have priority? Should my kids get priority cos their grandad was an altar boy and his mum and aunties all went to church several times a week until each of them left home? Absolutely not. life is about what you contribute to it, not what your 'background' was.

I think LucyEllensMum you might have been assuming that you would take priority and now there is a little bird at your ear saying 'those who go to church get priority over those who were simply baptised' and you are wanting to shout 'not fair not fair'!

So if you want to be sure of a place then you need to get going to church - can you imagine if every parent wanting a place at a church school said 'we had her baptised but then the priest got really boring and we are going to start coming again once she starts school'.