To think that actually, i am the lesser hypocrite here (church schools, sorry!)

[LucyEllensmummy]

OK so, I have just submitted my application for my DD to go to the local church school. My reasons are as follows. 1. It is BY FAR the best school in the local area. 2. I am a catholic and want my DD to go to a catholic school and three, and possibly the most important reason 3. My father, who died before he met DD would have been thrilled for her to go to that school and have the whole churchy upbrining.

So, here is the difficult bit - I am a lapsed catholic. I did go to church for just over a year when DD was born, but as she got older the services got too much for her. I could have started going by now yes, but i have to tell you - our local priest could BORE for England, most parishoners agree with me. My DP is not catholic, hes atheist. We are not married.

Now, i totally accept that practising catholics are given priority over non practising catholics. I had the choice to go to church every sunday when actually i would rather not, just because i want dd to go the school. I chose not to do this. I think the admissions critirea is that, PRacticing catholics then non practicing catholics, non catholic but attend different church and then non church goers (this alongside catchment area etc).

So, was having conversation with another mum who is non catholic who got quite cross that my DD would take priority over her DD because we are catholic and she is not, even though they go to church - fair enough, but she has made it clear that she "trudges to church every week so she can get her child into the school". As a catholic i think she underestimates the difference between catholic and non catholic christianity, and she is only taking her child to church to get her into the school anyway. Never mind that we can hear the church/school bells from our house which is a 5 minute walk from the school and she lives in the catchment area of a totally fine school, but a 15 minute car journey to the catholic school.

The school does have to take a proportion of non catholics anyway so what her problem is im not really sure...

corrr yeah tallulah, make mine a brandy - thats one thing the catholic church doesn't seem to mind isn't it DDDDRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIINKKKKKKK!!!

Actually, the whole experience this afternoon reminded me a lot of Father Ted, except our Father is a little bit more Bishop Brennan than Ted. The housekeeper could have been a short version of Mrs Doyle in fact i had a barrage of Images going through my head standing outside the prestbytry or however you spell it, with my dog so i obviously coudlnt go in and be lectured

Oh, x post.
I commented to mil that sil and her bf are not married so how can they have their children baptised as catholics, seeing as sex outside marriage is outside the catholic religion.

mil replied 'oh they'll have anyone these days'

Personally I think the biggest hypocrites are the priests taking collection money from non-catholics that they know are only there for the schools.

(but you do need to go to church lem before you complain about anyone else doing it )

flibbertygibbit, i really don't think i take priority over other church goers at all, i have a CofE friend who wants her boy to go to the school and i happen to think that she should take priority over me, she is actively involved with her church, of course she takes priority over me. I just think this other woman is being actively hypocritical.

I don't want to go to church, so i don't go - i think that is more honest than going every week just to get my child into the school. Of course, most peoples baptisms mean very little its mostly to do with the party - DDs had profound meaning to me, for very personal reasons that i dont want to share, but I have my beliefs. I don't make the addmission criteira but i WILL take advantage of it.

Its a cutthroat world out there in schoolsworld it would seem. I have friends whose children go to that school who are unbaptised and the parents confirmed atheists, but tis the best school - the father is a school governor. LEM makes note to pop round for a cup of tea sometime soon - you know, offer to water their plant while on holiday, get DP to do some cheap work etc - there is nothing, i wont stoop to - well yeah there are a few things

I certainly wont be coming here saying it is unfair if she doesn't get in though, i will be disappointed, but it will be fair enough.

"But to take your child to church every week when you dont want to be there i can't see the point of it."

You can't see the point because it would inconvenience you? Going to mass isn't about being entertained and why you can't take one child with you baffles me. I take three under the age of five and, no, they don't "get" the whole standing up/kneeling business but they don't have to, they just have to be there and become used to it until they are old enough to tell me they no longer want to attend.

Do you really expect people to congratulate you on your moral probity for sending your child to a Catholic school but not wanting to practise?

I am in a similar position, LEM! When we married in the catholic church, one of the "conditions" was that our children should be brought up catholic. We agreed to this, even though I am not an every-week churchgoer, and DH isn't catholic. Difficult to see how you can bring your children up catholic without the backing of a catholic schooling (to prepare them for the sacraments etc). I would say that now, since dd1 has started at the local catholic primary (which incidentally was also the school I attended all those years ago), it has encouraged me to go back to the church, and I am rediscovering the community, and know so many people from years ago that it feels like I have never been away!

One thing I would say is that, in the few mths since dd started school, it has been a bit of a surprise to me just how much catholic teaching goes on in a actholic school- even in Primary 1! It has taken me right back to my school days, and I am glad I DID have a catholic upbringing to enable me to make sense of her teachings, and answer her questions. I imagine it might be quite difficult for someone who has never been involved in the catholic church- a lot of the stuff she is doing is very fundamental, but unmistakeably catholic! Not saying that practising Christians of other denominations wouldn't be able to answer faith questions, but there are some differences- for example wrt the sacraments- which I imagine might prove a bit more tricky if you weren't already brainwashed indoctrinated into the catholic ethos!

For that reason, I can understand why lapsed catholics, who presumably underwent a minimum of 16 years of indoctrination by the catholic church before they lapsed, might be in a better position to guide their children in the mysterious ways of the catholic faith, and would therefore have priority.

'who got quite cross that my DD would take priority over her DD because we are catholic'
only commenting on what you put in your op.

and

'there is nothing I won't stoop to' - the other mum is also 'stooping' and taking advantage of the entrance requirement.

OK its an aibu thread, so yes i think aibu but fgs you leave yourself wide open for people to disagree with you if you make comments about grovelling to governors etc!

Personally I think all the people I know who are set on getting their children into church schools are hypocrites, because none of them would do it if there was a better, non-religious school next door.

And the Church is a disgrace. None of this is about the spiritual welfare of children as a group, it's about tribalism - keeping the church going.

I live in a very poor area where three quarters of the top 18 schools (out of 30 schools altogether) are church schools or private schools. None of the church schools have an intake which reflects the social make-up of the borough. They don't take their fair share of children from deprived households and this throws the whole system out. How can the Church perpetuate a divisive school system which results in so much social inequality, with deprived, disruptive children all crammed into the most undesirable schools in any given area? It's dreadful.

Er -- titty?

My dc go to a church school although we are in catchment for a non-church school which is more desirable and has (notionally) better results. It's not that unusual.

Round here (north London) there are a few church school that are very desirable, but the vast majority of church schools (CoE and RC) are not particularly smart or sought-after outside the community they serve. Most have v. mixed intakes and very average SATS results. Look at the league tables for Hackney, Islington or Haringey if you need convincing.

Don't make generalisations like that, it simply isn't true.

I was joking about that flibberty, if you knew my friend you would know that he is the most uncorruptable, play completely by the rules even if that means putting ones balls in a vice type person i know.

I am left wondering why though, why is it that the church schools are the best schools? I don't ever really remember getting religion for breakfast dinner and tea, but that was probably because i did

I said I am LAPSED catholic!!!! So lapsed that we have moved to a much smaller house to have a better chance of the boys going to the good NON CHURCH school.

but, you either go to church or you don't. if church attendance is a criteria for getting into the school then you need to attend church and not complain that you should have priority because of something your family did historically.

fwiw I went to church from birth and for the first few years it was the latin mass. I certainly didn't get all the standing kneeling sitting and latin but it was church and the priest was bloody boring, but we were catholic so we went.

Didn't you get it for supper too

I have to leave this thread now or I'll be having nightmares about my old headmistress...

yanbu
the school has a clear and published criteria
you fit it better, end of

i don't really agree with faith schools in general, but that's the way the system is set up.

i take a bit of a dim view of the church trudgers i am afraid, it think it is hypocritical, and vaguely dishonest.

Actually the irony of this is that LEM is getting priority because of what her family did historically and it is not that she is complaining about but rather because she feels that the churchgoer is the bigger hypocrite ... wtf?!

Rev, why is there a difference between a lapsed catholic and a non-catholic? (Genuine question.)

Thinking about it some more, if the reason you want your child to go to a catholic school is because that school has a better academic record/ better social standing then you are being a hypocrite.

LEM has said that, even although she herself is lapsed (but you know, once a catholic, always a catholic and all that!) she wants her child to have a catholic schooling, and be raised within the catholic community, therefore that in itself isn't hypocritical. As a less-than-devout catholic myself, I can see why she wants that- I want my dd to enjoy the catholic community as I did when I was at school. I thought it was a good way to be schooled, and even though I have some issues with the religion now as an adult, why should it mean my dd misses out on a religious education that she will probably enjoy too. She too can make her own mind up about parts of the catholic dogma when she is older, but I will at least have allowed her the experience of it.

Depends whether the decision is being made on whether you want your child to be brought up with a basis in catholicism, or are just looking for a school which will advance your child the most academically, and who cares about the religious side of it, IMO

be genuinely interested to hear your point of view rev. i do believe that once a catholic, always a catholic - i sent my first DD to a non catholic church school, it was funny, i used to feel really guilty for being in church from t'other side am just thinking that if i give too many clues about boring and behind the times priests you'll get who i am talking about. I should be fair though, i do have a soft spot for Mr scary boring pants priest, he was the priest when i was at school. That is what i cant understand, to talk to he is actually a lovely man - when he can refrain from trying to drag me and DP down the isle, but his sermons are honestly garbage.

What did make me laugh about the whole thing though when we were going to church is that whenever important dates were coming up (ie school forms to be signed, bus forms to be signed) it would be standing room only . I find that more hypocritical than me saying, you know, its not right for me to go to church right now (or, im actually too fecking lazy to go to church right now) than turning up in my sunday best whenever i need something from the priest.

I would like to point out that my thread title does accept that i am being a hypocrit and i have actually battled with this decision. I decided NOT to send DD1 to a catholic school and it was one of the biggest mistakes i have ever made.

To be fair rev, the other mother wasn't really being judgey, and i do see her point but the criteria are that catholics do come before non catholics,despite whether they practice. I think that is fair because as someone pointed out, when DD starts school, probably before, i will start to take DD to church again so by her going to the school it actually gets her lazy mothers arse back into church.

I think the part I'm struggling with is that Catholicism is a faith. You either believe it or you don't.

I get that if you grew up in a Catholic family you may continue with the guilt etc etc even if you stop believing but I don't get why that gets you a church place at a Catholic school ...

A lot about faith schools puzzle me (although I am not against them actually) but this really does take the biscuit imo!

lucyellen - why do you want your daughter to go to church when you don't want to go yourself?

jooly thankyou, you have summed up exactly why i want my DD to have a catholic education. I think i said the same thing, but made it sound like that was the reason i thought she was entitled to it. My Dad only took me to church, when i didnt want to go anymore, he didnt go but it was so important to him that i was raised a catholic, and I do think im a "better" person for it. When i had DD1, i was a young single mother and didnt send her because i thought she would be singled out but i would hope this wouldnt be the case - my immaturity to precidence there but now i am (much) older, it has become important to me again. I have always tried to be an honest person and help others, and i truly believe that is my catholic upbringing that drives that.

I too have many many issues with the catholic church that i am deeply uncomfortable with - I have had to question whther i was even doing the right thing sending her to this school, but my issues with the catholic church are not personal. From a personal development level i think the catholic schooling system is by far the best. However, I do have to admit to the fact that the school IS an excellent school with a better record than even the private schools in the area.

Am i being a hypocrit - absolutely, but i think my friend is too, she is just being actively hypocritical.

noonki, she is 3, what is she going to get out of going to church? When she is four there is the childrens liturgy - I will take her then! I don't want to go to church alone, i want to go as a family, but at the moment that doesn't suit DD. Maybe my reasonings are because actually i have good memories myself of going to church and i find the whole thing quite comforting and want that for my DD. Even though i stopped being a practicing catholic, i never stopped being a catholic (they wont let you, see!)