To think that using foreign phrases in books, etc, is a bit unnecessary and pretentious?

[mm22bys]

It really bugs me when I'm reading a book, or even the odd MN thread!, and someone feels it's necessary to through in a foreign phrase or 10. I can get by with a bit of French, but everything else (for example Latin) goes over my head. I am sure I'm not the only one!

It just seems really pretentious and unnecessary to me, especially since a lot of people can't even speak / write English properly.

AIBU?

It depends on what you feel the intention of the speaker is:

is it practical- then that may be a good reason

is it technical- so that no English word expresses exactly the same thing

is it to add local flavour- like tapas, when you could equally well say snacks

is it to represent the speech of another character

is it to make you feel included in a group but unfortunately they misjudged it and you didn't

or is to make you feel excluded- it does happen

agree with Nekabu. And others who have mentioned how language evolves. Also, sometimes it can be less about exclusivity than not realising people outside your friends/family don't talk about things andabout the same things as you do. My Mum would talk about things going phut or kaputt, without being anything approaching a linguist, and I'm sure there are lots of other examples.

I understand that there is no word for Schadenfreude in English or any other language except German, but I'm sure it's a global feeling!

No problem with using words like schadenfreude which are very longwinded in English and are hence relatively well accepted in English, and certainly not with latin usages like etc.

I do have a problem with novels where the speech is written largely in English, but then the author throws in one phrase to signify that the speaker is foreign, but uses a phrase that he/she cannot assume we know. So if the two characters are French, the author doesn't write "Bonjour" to signify they're French and then the rest of the speech is in English but has some incomprehensible phrase in French which means we don't understand what is going on. That is just the author showing off that he/she knows another language, and is completely unnecessary given the novel is actually written in English. Really wish I had an example now so I don't just sound like I'm ranting

YANBU.

Can't stand it.

Those who pepper their conversations with pretentious foreign phrases should be considered persona non grata by the rest of us ordinary folk.

Spot on Holidays, that's what I think I wanted to say at the start!

I think what I don't like about the use of foreign words / phrases is the apparent assumption by the speaker / author that we know what s/he's talking about!

We aren't all classically educated, and while we can check things, as Strunck said many years ago, what's so bad about considering the "comfort" of the reader, when there is an equivalent English word!

(he wrote many years ago though, and doesn't like the use of employes, eg.)

I think the problem is where to draw the line- English is the language with the most number of words in it... precisely because we have purloined so many from other languages!

Many phrases are extremely useful too.

It annoys me when people do it on here.

Let's just take a look at a few words from your original post.

necessary - origin Latin
phrase - origin Greek
can - origin Early Anglo-Saxon
prententious - origin Latin possibly via French

It makes you wonder what English really is! That's how language develops, by taking on new words from elsewhere and incorporating them.

But sometimes (referring to the points about authors made by Holidays and mm22bys) an author uses a foreign word or phrase deliberately in order not to be understood... It's an alienating technique, and it might be used for a variety of reasons (e.g. to give the reader a sense of the alienation/lack of comprehension felt by one of the characters). An example is Primo Levi describing Auschwitz, when he says, describing the tower that rises in the middle of the camp: 'It was we who built it. Its bricks have been called Ziegel, briques, tegula, cegli, kamenny, mattoni, teglak, and they were cemented by hatred, hatred and discord, like the Tower of Babel'. So, he's making a point about all the different nationalities in the camp and the different languages spoken and how hard it is for anyone to understand anyone else.

I do agree, though, that when the foreign language isn't used for a reason it can be very annoying. I gave up reading Kathy Reichs when a character came in and said something like 'Bonjour' and then she explained in the most clunky way possible '... After working in Canada for 12 years, she now understood that "Bonjour" meant "Hello"' [I paraphrase, but it was along those lines ]. Well... no shit, Sherlock!

PS Sorry, that sounds very 'teacher-y' . Guess what I do for a living?

It's all to do with comfort isn't it, and whether you like being stretched outside your comfort zone.

I think it is fair to say there are a number of foreign phrases / terms in the English language which most of us wouldn't think twice about using (je ne sais quoi, schadenfreude), in much the same way that there are words in the English language that I don't know. If I come across a word don't understand I will lo it up, and feel better for having expanded my knowledge (e.g. (!) I honestly didn't know what 'disingenuous' meant when it became the most overused word on MN circa (!) Moldygate, so I looked it up)

..and I didn't mind not knowing, or admitting I didn't know, which I think may be a key factor.

Some foreign words and phrases are just much better or don't have an English equivalent - schadenfreude/je ne sais quoi/elan. I'm a big fan of the odd Yiddish word as well: chutzpah, schtick and so on, but will admit to being thrown by Latin...

oops, x-posts with AmIOdette...

Yiddish is a good example, lalalonglegs - of a language that has lots of words which just explains something so well it's not worth translating - everyone else should add it to their lexicon. Chutzpah is definitely a brilliant word, which would be hard to translate.

I think it depends whether you don't understand a word and think "oooh, I wonder what that is - must find out" or think "I don't understand, not fair!". The one sees it as a window into a new place of meaning, and the other is quite happy in her own world thank you. Also probably depends on whether you spend much time in other languages - in my peripatetic life I've spent a lot of time half understanding and saw it as my problem rather than the speaker/author's.

YY re Yiddish. I remember Clive james basing a whole TV review on the difference between kitsch TV and schlock TV. Still no idea what the original meanings are.

[looks up]

I think it's different when it's just one word - whole sentences are annoying. I know I've read several books where the characters have said something in French, that wasn't explained in English. I've understood it, because I still remember enough from A level, but I know my husband wouldn't. I've also read at least one book where a similar thing was done in Spanish, and I didn't understand the line. I also have no idea what the books were though. It's possible the Spanish one may have been a Mills and Boon (many, many years ago!).

yabu, some phrases are just so much more expressive in their foreign form.
surely if you read something that goes over your head you can just look it up thus broadening your vocabulary and education.

Pretentious? Moi??

@MsP - Jamais

YABU. Why don't you look up the phrases/references you don't understand? You obviously have internet connection.

If you feel phrases you don't understand in a book are "pretentious", perhaps you would be happier reading other (simpler) books.

Oh and whatever you do, don't ever read Umberto Eco's "Foucault's Pendulum"

I'm a huge Jilly Cooper fan and she is a horror for doing this! (As was Ruby Ferguson in her Jill pony books but at least she would explain the term! Eg Infra dig and high dudgeon)

It's actually down to Jilly Cooper that I know anything at all about subjects which fly way beyond my radar - opera, polo, fine wines, famous works of art and classical music and for that I wholeheartedly thank her.

Even reading as sheer entertainment can enrich the mind and that is the true beauty of it.

Isn't high dudgeon English ?

I forgot about the Jill books, I loved them. Rapide and I can't remember the other pony's name. And Ann her friend who cleaned her tack while watching television.

Thanks for the lecture, Gold Coast, I do come to MN for my daily dose of condescension!

Well spelt mm22bys!