To want to sink to my knees and cry?

[tessofthedurbervilles]

When my baby is born I would be better off not working than returning to my well paid respectable job....that is just the most stupid thing ever. All I want to do is pay my way but the system is making it easier to live on handouts.....

Anna8888 - absolutley. That is so well put.

It is my belief that the debate would end if 'we' as the workers started to kick ass. I could simply down tools half way through delivering a baby and simply say 'sorry, it's 3pm and I need to be at the schoold gates as I can't afford a childminder'

But I never will will I?

Elequontly put, Anna!

I think you are amazing too, Treedelivery. You don't need to be having doubts about yourself. It's social policy that's got it wrong, not you.

One are that might be worth considering is when to have children. I have followed the same path that my Mum did; I spent my teens at University, my early twenties having children and working in a low paid job (never claimed benefits), and then embarked on a career in my late twenties. I am now in my early thirties and will never need to take a career break due to babies or toddlers. Other women in their early thirties that I know are now wanting children but are worrying about how to continue in their careers in a field where it is just not possible to get back in if you give up work for a few years.

I can be much more committed and flexible my job with a 7 and 10 year old than I could be with a baby and toddler, and other childfree men and women I work with have not really progressed much further than I have, because, by their own admission, they were out partying or having gap years or whatever and were not that career hungry in their early twenties.

My husband established his career while I worked part time, so now he can be much more flexible as he is established at work, and this allows me to spend 2 months of each year (not all in 1 go) working abroad.

I would not say there is an ideal age to have children, but I will advise my daughter and son to not mess about in their twenties, but to get straight on and either have kids or work hard at paid work and save, and live frugally as if you are going to have kids.

I am not saying this is the only way, but it is a way that has worked for me in terms of career, although I still had the problem of huge childcare costs for a baby, and other new mums did find me an anomaly, as they were either 32 or 16.

a couple of posters have said they will try to educate their daughters so they are aware of their earning capacity when they train for something.

what about our sons too? nothing will change until we all realise the unfairness of it all

Such a great point ssd

I very much wanted a boy when I was pregnant. I think I wanted to raise boys to go forth and champion breastfeeding, motherhood and mostly equality. As I have girls I'll raise 'em to go get it!

yes I'd like to raise my sons to know women can do just the same as them and marriage is a partnership, whatever the circumstances

Thank you for the hugs. And to everyone on this thread and to the OP who wanted to do as I have many times!

It is consoling to know people understand. 1000's are in the same boat as me/us - but it's more important for me to hear that some of us know the boat is very badly designed iyswim.

I'm the same- I have 3 under 4 and have recently been looking for a part-time job as we could do with some extra money but nothing is suitable.

Either it doesn't pay enough to cover the childcare or the hours are not fixed so it would be too difficult to get flexible, affordable childcare.

I can't work evenings or nights because DH's work is unpredictable and he often works past 7pm and has to go away for 1-3 nights at short notice.

My only other option is weekends but DH says no because it is our only family time- which is true.

I have a degree in Psychology and I defer my student loan payments every year.

It sucks.

you know i have been following this thread. and there's just one thing that really keeps popping into my head.

money doesn't buy hapiness.

but feeling secure and safe in your home and with your family does.

life's not so much about having a great salary.

more to do with living within your means.

That is true - but money stops your house being repossesed and means you can have heating on. And we can't so we're not feeling too secure in our homes or contented with our life choices. [as I'm part time and dh has been made redundant, and upping my hours at the minute is as likely as winning the lottery]. In fact we are feeling like failures as adults and parents.

No one here feels a great salary will make them happy - I'm sure of that. Not being treated like nobodies would help though.

treedelivery - when you worked out what you could afford for your mortgage before you got it. did you sit down and work out what bills/food/rent all expenses would be.

then make sure after you've paid all that there is still enough spare if the interest rates go "tits up" as they have done???

or did you take the mortgage as that what bank agreed to lend you???without sitting down and making sure there was enough spare for any unexpected expenses??

the banks do play a part in offering these mortgages to people who just couldn't afford them. they dont really give 2 hoots about the fallout that occurs.

but you have perhaps learned the hard way what it means to live within your means. certainly at a time in your life if you have or are planning to start a young family.

Our mortgage of £400 per month was entirely within our £40k per year thank you and our accountant, financial advisor, bank manager and the citizens advice said our financial planning was rounded and sensible.

Few can absorb a 3/4 reduction in total family income with 2 hours notice and a withheld months salary [liquidation of the firm], when 35 weks pregnant on 16 hours per week and about to HAVE to have time off for maternity leave.

We have 2 months before the mortgage insurance kicks in, then 3 months of relative safety to try claw ourselves back from the brink. This with a dh who is prety much aggrophobic since the crash came and in a tiny isolated town where the factories are vanishing.

I'll be going now.

ok, so it's not the situation for you. but for many people they were put in that position by banks.

my sister was offered a mortgage £100k more than she asked for. there was absolutely no way she could have afforded any property to the full value they offered her.

but alot of people in her situation found themselves tempted and taking on these mortgages way above their means.

and now find themselves in homeless after the banks clawed them back and reposessed

thats point i was making

badly

MillyR - I'm really glad that it worked out for you but, among my friends, only one person is still with the partner she met in her early 20s. Obviously you were a really mature 20-something but many of us weren't and it would have been a complete disaster to encourage us to have children at that age. Thank God I had my 20s to piss about, decide what I wanted to do, satisfy some wanderlust, try some boyfriends out for size and meet the person that I finally chose to have my children with when we hit our mid-30s (and I was well enough established in my career and financially secure enough to take a couple of years out and go freelance).

so when is this revolution? i am like totally there.

i had ds when i was 23 and earning £15K in a fun graduate level job in the fashion industry. In london where we live the FT nursery cost was £1160 per month. stupid. i loved loved loved my little job and if i had been able to continue it could have turned into a fun career. as it was i had a break working part time (worked in shops weekends - never saw dp!) and have only recently gone back FT now my oldest is at school into a different industry. i work 7am - 3pm so i can collect ds from school (dp drops dcs off at school & CM on his way to work). and never take a lunch break and constantly aware that my colleagues all stay late and get in early and feel like i have so much to prove, i work from home every evening and am pushing myself way too hard. balance not quite right at the moment but at least i'm aware of that. i'll be in the supermarket with 2yo and 5yo, on my mobile talking to someone in our Swedish office or one of our suppliers, sorting work stuff, it's a bit mad. i earn £25K, childminder costs £866 per month. so now at least i can afford to work, though seeing colleagues with so much more disposable income and me struggling each month it does seem crazy. we've pretty much always been 'just above' the threshold for any govt help - but living in london and having to pay approx £1000 rent / mortgage plus bills etc plus childcare is nigh on bloody impossible.

MillyR, hi! i did the same as you: "I spent my teens at University, my early twenties having children and working in a low paid job (never claimed benefits), and then embarked on a career in my late twenties" - have never understood why more people don't do this, or why more people aren't encouraged to do this. i guess they're afraid of having children and being poor. it has worked for me (though like you i didn't meet anyone my age, they were all either 16 or 32!) though yes i am poor... i'm 29 now and my youngest is 2.

will stop writing now as am rambling and not makinbg sense, but loving the debate and hope boffinmum and treedelivery's revolution happens! how can i help? have pillows!

x-post with lalalonglegs - yeah i guess that's the same for my group of mates too - i am the only one with kids, we're all around 30 and many are still single. okay that answers my question!

what is even sillier is that a friend of mine was advised that she would be better off to throw her (earning) partner out and give up her part time job, as she would be eligible for far more in terms of help and benefits as a single, unemployed mother.

That is just wrong. (she didn't do it, btw)

Hello Frenchie, glad you are on board!!

Treedelivery's situation really sucks, and I think there will be many more people in that boat in the near future. There's always the assumption that people are insanely daft with money but so many of us are very canny indeed, which makes misfortune and unfairness smart all the more.

BTW, not everyone's mortgages are going down. We had to fix ours for four years just before the reduction in rates, to make sure we have something sensible we would still afford. So we have been penalised for being prudient.

should have typed prudent.

Monster, I am always after psychology lecturers. Where are you based?

Thumbwich - job centre plus kinda suggested that to us on the phone! A really lovely guy who knew this was all he had to help us with. Bless him for the thought and humanity, he was the only person who 'got it' in all our dealings with the people on phones or the people in offices.

Haven't done it.

Monster - the only wry satisfaction I can invisage is the day we hit 55 and our student loan debt is written off.

We get it, treedelivery. xx

I know you do - your all wonderfull. I don't feel like I'm just moaning or in a 'whose the worse off; comp around here, like I do in rl. I think because here we can look at so many view points.
I love mumsnet and all the lovely intelligent enlightened women that I get to run to with my arms open!!

One day might be less needy poster and more bloody use around here

Something strikes a chord here - an academic friend of ours (Professor of History) said that he had entered academe under false pretences. When he did his phd, academics were reasonably well paid. Now academics are relatively poorly paid considering the years of training involved. Society changes and economies change. So I agree with Anna that flexibility is important and transferable skills.

A fantastic debate - even if it has taken me all evening to trawl through it (on and off). BoffinMum for President!

I have a degree and before having the dds I had a decent job in marketing. However, like so many other women out there earning middling salaries, financially it didn't make sense to go back to work due to the huge cost of childcare.

We worked out that if I went back to work full time on my previous salary, after spending £300 pw on childcare, I would have a grand total of £400 left pcm. Tax credits add up to approx £250 pcm (Dh is a low earner) therefore I would be working in effect for about £150 pcm. To be really jobsworth, this equated to less than £1 per hour inc. commuting times. Talk about feeling undervalued!

It seems that there are a few ways to justify going back to work:

1. You are a high earner a la Xenia (and good for you, but not all of us WANT to be lawyers/doctors/high flying professionals etc) therefore the cost of childcare barely touches the sides of your hefty pay packet.

1. You do it for the long-term benefit of still having a career once the early years are over.

1. You work part-time (and if anyone knows of any decent part time jobs in Somerset please let me know because they are VERY few and far between). As another poster said, this is often the more lucrative option, bizarre as it may seem.

1. You do it for the love of your job, money is not your motivation.

Just going back to the part time issue, it does seem that unless you wangle a pt job from your existing company, the door does seem to well and truly shut behind you once you commit to leaving ft employment. Perhaps more availability of pt jobs would be a good thing too? My dds are now in ft education/subsidised nursery so I am READY to take on the world again, (I am still young, enthusiastic, IQ of 130-odd, organised... ) just falling at the first hurdle of finding a decent pt job. For personal reasons, right now I can't countenance the thought of ft work yet... for a start what on earth would I do with the dcs in the holidays, inset days etc? Even if DH did an equal share of care, we would never get to see each other!

So can we add more and better PT work openings to our revolutionary demands? A slight digression, but a valid one I feel.