To want to sink to my knees and cry?

[tessofthedurbervilles]

When my baby is born I would be better off not working than returning to my well paid respectable job....that is just the most stupid thing ever. All I want to do is pay my way but the system is making it easier to live on handouts.....

Mavis, I know this sounds OT and that I seem a bit think in saying it, but what is 'business' as a profession? I have heard of business studies but didn't choose it as an option. We were told to aspire to be architects, engineers and so on. I don't know anyone who describes themselves as working in 'business' or what such a job entails, so I find it hard to understand why women are put off entering it.

I know a lot of people working in IT and finance, and they seem to be getting equal chances. It always seems to be public sector jobs where women get a raw deal.

I think because I had workable childcare in place when I was 22 with a full time nanny I culd change jobs at 23 and be seen as safe because I had gone back to work quickly and things worked rather than someone who might take a gap year with no commitments. I always found having babies gave me things in common with much older work colleagues and customers. In other words a good not a bad thing. I was even hired when I had a 1 and 3 year old and was 5 months pregnant! That was back in 1988.

One reason Mavis' colleagues think woemn with children are a risk is because we're continously let down by other women going part time, wanting flexible working, turning up at work late because their husbands don't help them if a child is sick etc etc. It's other women who are hurting women who do work full time. Our reputation as full time very good workers is damaged for every single woman who can't hack it and wimps out into the home to bake cakes. You can't get away from the political aspect of this however unpalatable that is for stay at home mothers.

On what might help I agree with the post above about non transferable paternity leave and pay - use it or lose it. Labour keeps postponing it's plans on paternity leave but even with those they weren't strong enough. If women and men both had 6 weeks full paid leave after a birth (at the moment it's only women for 6 weeks at 90% pay unless you're in the public sector supported by hard working tax payers to take more time off on full pay....) we might find more men taking time off particularyl given the UK's absolutely pathetic breastfeeding rates beyond 6 weeks.

I was trying to keep it general, meaning any business/profession - architects and engineers have/work in businesses for example. I didn't mean to be opaque. I work in IT across different sectors. I don't get a raw deal, it's a really good job actually, and as I say, I can get over the sexist attitudes I come across, but it's irritating.

I brought it up because I think it's linked to the cultural assumption that mothers are more responsible for childrearing than fathers. I don't believe this is true. I shouldn't have copied LEM's sick sick sick phraseology.

I think Xenia's right about the reasons my colleagues view women with children as a risk.

An aside though - public sector workers do also work hard and pay tax! If they pay less tax it's because they earn less - we'd need parity here at the same time as levelling out the benefits.

LucyEllensMum - if you feel you are a second class citizen then that's your problem, because NO ONE has stated on this thread that people who aren't working are second class citizens.

What's interesting though, are the total prejudices which come across in your thread. You assume that working parents don't look after, or raise, their own children. Sorry to disappoint you, but we do. I have yet to meet any working parent who leaves their precious child with a stranger. We don't.

I assume that you have a partner supporting you to enable you to not work - so I hope he doesn't mind being considered a second class parent to his daughter, seeing as he presumably isn't there every single minute of the day.

Maybe when your child is older and you can compare how she is with her peers, many of whom will have been raised by working parents, and you see that it makes no difference to the children's abilities, confidence and happiness, maybe then you can re-evaluate and admit that being a working parent is a totally normal part of life.

That's lovely for you that you are happy to not work, and that you have a means to support you in your choice - but be honest enough to admit it's because YOU want to do it, not because it's the best thing for everyone else.

Xenia - out of interest, what public sector workers get more than 6 weeks on full pay ML? I'm in the public sector and I didn't get any more than 6 weeks on 90%!

There's something in all that, Xenia. One of my colleagues made so much fuss recently about having a baby you would think she was the first person ever to have done it, frankly, and she clocked off mentally before even going on leave, leaving me and a colleague (me being a brand new person on the team and her boss for 50% of her job) to do half her job for her on top of our own because she was 'so tired' (nothing out of the normal for pg I hasten to add - no major health issues as far as I could tell). I let this go, partly to err on the safe side from a H&S point of view, and partly because because actually it simplified things for me a bit in a roundabout micromanagement sort of way, but I personally think she was a bit daft to lay herself so open professionally.

She then had a big childcare flap and made a big (unnecessary) fuss about flexible working (it's quite routine in my industry), and eventually came back three days a week. She then wanted to have lunch with me, and was angling for a more senior role.

I then gave her a bit of a talking to about professional image, pointed out I have three kids, was pg myself with nobody doing half my workload, and on the whole manage to stay relatively unruffled and on top of my job. I basically explained to her that by going part time, choosing days that suited her and not the demands of the business, without discussing it with colleagues first, she had successfully timetabled herself at short notice out of all the available work that would help her career move onwards and upwards.

I said that if she wanted higher status, she had to sort herself out and decide what she wanted her priorities to be, otherwise she would need to stop moaning about equal opps because it was the (part and full time) people with good time management, team instincts and real commitment and graft who were getting promoted, who were committed to seeing projects through and so on, not just blokes or non-parents.

She took this OK because I am an incredibly family friendly on many levels (eg making arrangements for her to bring her baby to our annual awayday for one of her keeping in touch days, so she was in the loop, but on her own terms) and I think she knew full well she had taken advantage during pg, but there are few employers who can afford to be so frank with female employees without fear of censure.

That's a really interesting post BoffinMum - and well done you for having the guts and sensitivity to tackle a potential minefield!

I agree that many employers (particularly male) would be genuinely really scared to go there and address these issues.

I bet we could all name someone like the woman you describe - I certainly remember when the most career-minded woman I'd ever met decided to get pregnant. She drove everyone mad by insisting on lie-downs in the staff room, generally carrying on as though she was the first person ever to have a baby, and eventually managing to talk her way into 'flexible working arrangements' which may have been flexible to her but which actually impacted negatively on quite a few colleagues.

Not good.

BTW Xenia, we also get the state minimum for maternity pay (90% for 6 weeks plus SMP for the rest) plus professional pay which is 50% of income for the SMP period, but you have to pay this back if you don't return to your job for at least 3 months. Talking to friends in other white collar jobs/professions this is a pretty routine arrangement now.

State minimum for maternity pay, redundancy pay etc all the way in public sector as far as I can see.... certainly none of the outrageously huge pay-offs you find in private industry.

I think it's only same sex parents who can really wade in and get other parents in line professionally - in the case of my colleague she was both being her own worst enemy and dumping on other people in the process.

We had another colleague (!) who didn't feel happy using the (really brilliant) workplace nursery for more than half a day at a time for random odd days for his toddler. Fair enough - that's his choice. But he then expected us to suddenly reschedule the lives of 150 people and all the associated resources around a kiddie nursery timetable of his own choosing. In that case, I got my own (male) boss, who is also a dad, to have a discreet word with him, and we managed to sort things out in a more reasonable way for everyone.

Violet, i totally agree with you - it is MY choice and it is the right one for me. Your choice is to work, and thats great too. Do you feel that you have to justify yourself? Im sure you don't and neither should you. I don't actually know the ins and outs of what has been said on this thread actually, but this is how i have been made to feel (incidentally not on mnet!!) in RL actually. People just assumed because i am highly qualified i would return to work straight away. I probably didn't post my rant in the right place to be honest, but i guess it was just a kick back at the whole "get mothers back in the workplace" thing.

As far as im concerned, if a working PARENT goes back to work then they must ensure adequate childcare is in place but that is not always possible if the child is ill. It is WRONG that is assumed that it will be the mother who has time off if the children are sick. For me, when i do return to work i may well go into teaching, that wont facilitate just dropping everything because my child is off school, my partner runs his own business so he will have to do it - simple as that. But one parent has to don't they? So i guess parents as a whole should be seen as an employment risk - but then again, they are more likely to be commited because they have a family to support and can't just flit from one job to another - thats how i would view it if i were an employer.

Things should be equal in the workplace, that is without question of course it is.

I didn't mean my post to be anti working mother, ive been a working mother and i feel that, for me, it was one of the biggest mistakes of my life.

I work in the public sector and got statutory minimum. Mind you, I think the public sector is better on paternity leave. My colleague got two weeks on full pay. DH wasn't entitled to any paid leave. He took a week holiday.

That sounds like good management Boffin. It's strange what having kids does to some people isn't it..... as you say, they can literally expect 100 other people to reorganise their working lives, workload etc etc just because they've become a parent!! And the irony is that often those 100 other people are parents too!

It all adds weight to the argument that being a working parent needs to be totally normalised, rather than being marginalised as a 'women's' issue.

Why can't people accept that:
a) it's perfectly normal to want to (and need to) earn a living
b) while our own children are obviously the most precious thing to us, it's not reasonable to expect everyone else to want to reorganise their lives around them.

LucyEllensMum - I agree that parenting is a joint responsibility.

Whenever our kids have been ill, DH and I have shared the time off equally. It certainly shouldnt fall to one parent.

FallenMadonna - I'm intrigued about paternity pay now! My understanding is that the public sector still only offers the minimum statutory pay for this!

I think some things can be reorganised to make things fairer, eg

Having meetings between 9-5 and not down the pub at the end of the working day for hours and hours.

Not cancelling people's leave at short notice.

Being sensitive about providing parking facilities (where possible) for working parents to simplify school and nursery runs and so on.

That kind of thing.

BTW My DH is vv senior, more so than me, and I make him take a turn looking after sick children, to set an example to others in his department!!

BoffinMum - leading from the front. I love it.

Am watching thread with interest btw - though haven't been able to make much contribution as my tax system knowledge is dire. Have so much to learn to be help me develop my rage into meaningfull ideas and suggestions.

There is a party manifesto in this thread, all the parties should be tipped off! It's here, just waiting for them.

Labour are far too tired and redistributive to be able to conceptualise what we are suggesting.

Not sure what the Lib Dems would have to say but I am expecting a Labour/Tory hung Parliament next time.

LucyEllensMummy, I just wanted to respond to your posts. I'm just pleased you're doing what's right for you at the moment, and I sad you're getting hassle on account of your choice.

I would just like to say though that lots of working parents are very involved with their kids as well as working out of the home, and it's not a case of just leaving the entire operation to other people we don't know. That's a bit of a myth.

LEM i understand your indignation of SAHM,so try empathise we all don't leave our children with strangers or merely pick them up nocturnally at bed time

cycling christ you get touchy and humphy faced indignation about your lot,being demeaned and stereotyped.Only to come out with "leave baby with strangers" cliche, hell you might as well add "precious moments". really stick the metaphorical boot in

so take that big ole cross off your back,seems the only person beating you up is you

feminism isn't making you feel better about your choices by denigrating other different choices

i have no axe to grind with anyone else choice,just get on with it frankly

LEM i understand your indignation of SAHM stereotypes,so try empathise we all don't leave our children with strangers or merely pick them up nocturnally at bed time

Fab post ScottishMummy

I did say SAHM can come across as a bit chippy, didn't I? Shame it comes to that, really.