To be annoyed that there is so much conflicting advice about feeding a baby?

[SamJohnsMum]

...BF for 10 mins a side...BF on demand...BF on routine...introduce a bottle early,,,don't introduce a bottle too early...don't wean before 6 months...wean when you want to..let them wean themselves...puree everything you can...babyrice is an ideal first food food...babyrice is wallpaper paste...

Head...about...to...explode...[confused and panicked emoticon]

I like what Eirlys said about picking a book that matches your philosophy. Before pregnancy I thought I'd have gone for a more routine based approach, but I found Dr Sears' "The Baby Book" helpful as I didn't find it to be overly prescriptive nor has it made me panic. Some books I'd looked at made me think that if I didn't adhere to it then the baby would never sleep/feed/behave well!

Um

Is it not a wee bit ironic that now the mn posts are contradicting each other? Just like the books. Good luck, OP.

I read Clare Byam Cook's book and found it quite helpful (helped me to diagnose my mastitis and dd1's reflux). Why is she considered such a monster? Genuinely curious - didn't strike me as saying anything outlandish unlike some baby book authors.

I think it's good that people will post contradictory opinions. Every family is different. I KNOW that the way we have chosen to bring up our children in my family is considered rigid in some ways (regular music practice, early nights, insistence on politeness) but not rigid enough in others.

CBC trained as a midwife but hasn't practiced for many years. Now she's on the 'celebrity baby guru' circuit - she's got a good publicist and pops up regularly on day time tv to talk about bf. This is despite the fact that she's not either a trained lactation consultant or bf counsellor. She does a lot of private work - charges £100+ for a consultation. Her big thing is slagging off the skills of volunteer counsellors from the NCT, ABM and La Leche League, who have done a minimum of 2 years training and who see women for free. She promotes breastfeeding in one breath and casts doubt on its proven benefits in the next. This is a great populist tactic - also the same one taken by GF and Tracy Hogg because it covers all the bases, will sell a lot of books and make the writer friends among that very large part of the population who know very little about the real differences between breast and bottlefeeding.

She appeals to naive breastfeeders because she is positive about bf, but she also don't alienate 'failed' (apologies for the word) or struggling bf because she makes a case that there is no actual 'hard' value to bf and no real disadvantages to a baby if a mother wants to stop bf and bottlefeed instead. This means she can position herself as a 'moderate' and make other people who don't sing from the same songsheet sound silly, hysterical and judgemental. Luckily for CBC she doesn't seem work for any particular organisation which requires her to provide evidence based practice or keep proper records of the outcomes from her consultations. She claims she is hugely successful in solving people's bf difficulties, but bf counsellors all over London will tell you that they've been called by women who've seen CBC and had continuing problems. She's very unpopular within the bf support community because of her profiteering and her enthusiasm for undermining public confidence in the work of trained counsellors who give up so much of their time to support women - for nothing - unlike CBC!

Crikey Gabygirl, so you think my post which told about my personal experience and where I found a middle line to tread betwen all the extreme views (ahem) is shit? Thanks.

Well I can't have done too badly, because my son sleeps and eats beautifully.

The advice given out on mumsnet is by unqualified people with their own agendas. There is no way I would trust a lot of the information given out on here. To be honest in 10 years time you will wonder what you were worried about, and how insignificant a part of parenting it really is.

Heh, this is true.

SamJohnsMum - feeling any less panicked or confused yet??

Read, read, read, everything you can.
Read the guidelines and find out why they're there.
Then do which feels best for you, that way you can be sure you're making an informed decision, know any risks you are taking and are happy with your choice.

I just wanted to mention that one of the most helpful people I saw was the breastfeeding counsellor from the local hospital. The health visitor was good, but this woman ruled supreme! Still needed to resort to syringes etc, but dd put on enough weight to be allowed out of hospital.

And btw I am very grateful to the health visitors who spotted what I could not: that in my particular case, the natural, breastfeeding on demand, letting dd set the pace was not working. Looking at some of the photographs now, I can't imagine how I didn't see what was staring me in the face: that my beautiful baby was turning into a little skeleton.

Of course this is not a normal experience, but I was so set on the idea that I was going to have a normal and natural experience because I was so well read and had such a positive attitude (and am a Scandinavian to boot!)- it never occurred to me that there could be something not normal about my baby.

So when you mention trained advisors from the NCT, La Leche League etc, I just wanted to add the trained advisors from the NHS. They have a lot of training too. And they may just have saved my dd's life.

You find it depressing, Gabygirl, when the assumption is made that all NCT teachers are like the ones some of us have encountered. Fair enough. But I find it equally depressing that you make assumptions about NHS staff. Because they are the people I have found really supportive. Not least of breastfeeding.

God my NHS breastfeeding counsellor was a flippin angel. Quite a wait but such a lovely lady. She's the only one stretched across a whole hospital catchment area too. Diagnosed my breast thrush and recommended homeopathy people to cure it when the doc's meds failed. Most importantly she told not to martyr myself and baby was lucky to get breast milk at all, commended my use of bottle and his adaptability etc.

I'd previously called Leche in desperation to say how much it hurt and how aggro the LO was and all they could say was it was probably my latch which I knew it wasn't..

Goes to show that all our experiences are different, and that we all need those different books and experts I suppose!

Cory - the counsellor you saw at the hospital would have been in all likelyhood trained by La Leche, the ABM or the NCT! As far as I'm aware there are no NHS sponsored level three bf counselling courses available. The NHS breastfeeding helplines that were set up last year are almost all staffed by ABM, La Leche League and NCT bf counsellors. Certainly in my area the bf counsellors who work at the hospital doing the clinics are trained by the voluntary organisations.

Re: making assumptions about NHS staff - I know there are many brilliant midwives. Unfortunately they often can't practice in the way they want because of staffing issues, so women still often don't get the care they deserve, even from these very good midwives. We have an outstanding birth centre in our local hospital where mums get cared for one to one - fantastic for them. But 85% of local mums end up on the labour ward where they're sharing their midwife with 2 or 3 other women. They also employ a lot of bank staff and it can't be denied that some of the midwives are very outdated in their practice. I'm not on a downer on NHS staff - they do a brilliant job sometimes in very difficult circumstances. But we shouldn't let our gratitude for the good care we get make us overlook dangerous or outdated practice.

"so you think my post which told about my personal experience and where I found a middle line to tread betwen all the extreme views (ahem) is shit? Thanks."]

Sorry - in what way is encouraging someone to think that it's a good idea to ignore all the advice they'll be given by breastfeeding counsellors and midwives who specialise in bf support (who'd all say feed on demand while you're establishing breastfeeding and avoid giving bottles if possible for at least the first few weeks) 'treading the middle line'? And how is someone who encourages women to do the things that are most likely to result in bf success 'extreme'? In what universe is not giving bottles to a newborn a radical or extreme stance?

"Well I can't have done too badly, because my son sleeps and eats beautifully"

Good for you. My children eat and sleep beautifully too - and they were bf on demand as newborns and had no routine at all. But I don't recommend that people do what I did because it worked for me, but because it's what almost all reputable breastfeeding experts say is the best way to safeguard breastfeeding in the first few weeks.

I agree, with both my dds I got the best support from NHS breastfeeding clinics. OP I'd advise you try one of those if you're struggling, I didn't find a single book which single handedly solved my issues and you really need someone to watch you feed to tell you what you're doing wrong (and right!) ~Thanks to these ladies I fed both dds for 13 mmonths, if I'd listened to CBC or the HV I'd have given up at six weeks.

Having said that I knew I'd only continue feeding dds if I had a routine and I used GF to show me possible ones. The bf counsellors would go beserk at her name, so I never mentioned her. In other words, you can combine all sorts of seemingly opposed advice to get result that works for you and your baby.

Anything you post on mn is likely to turn into an argument concerning agendas that are unlikely to be your concern right now. Good luck, again.

Gabygirl - I reacted irritably because I posted to the OP, on my personal exp., then got each point patronisingly cut, pasted and annihilated by you. It really irritates me that I now feel forced to respond as it's a bit of a hijack of this lady's thread.

Your final post goes to illustrate my point that we did things slightly differently, and got similar results! Well fed, well slept, healthy kids.

Of course I b/fed on demand (9 times a day as it turned out god love him) to establish, but we then quickly fell in to a routine, mostly set by him, but recognised and stuck to by me. I obviously didn't stick a bottle in his mouth from day one. but within weeks yes, and he was adaptable as a result.
I had an extremely rough time of birth and post-natal and needed this routine, and then after an infection struck, the bottle feed from my partner so I could sleep and heal.

Not everyone can be on demand for their babies, same as not everyone can get to really good advice. When I did after the thrush struck, my B/F counsellor who is booked up for weeks and extremely well thought of in my area said that babies don't "forget" their original method of feeding, and actually encourage me to introduce another bottle feed to protect the feeding.

Her advice was fantastic for me and others I've spoken to and I just don't buy the nipple confusion thing for a baby who appears to be feeding normally after a few weeks.

But again, this is my experience, I'm entitled to it. Sorry to the to bogart the thread there. I hope you find the advice that works for you. Am off now

I didn't 'annihilate' your points, just challenge them!

And of course there's not only one way to do things which will always result in a good outcome and work for everyone in the same way. However - if bf experts the country over recommend NOT introducing bottles while establishing lactation as the best way of safeguarding breastfeeding then it's surely a bit odd to imply this view is 'extreme'! In any case I was clear that I was making a point about establishing breastfeeding - because the first few weeks are so important. You said to the OP that you felt it was a positively good thing to introduce bottles 'early on', and rubbished those who question whether this is a good thing as being.... I don't know.... militant or unreasonable in some way. You imply that that bf experts who advocate caution when it comes to introducing bottles while establishing breastfeeding as 'having an agenda' other than helping mothers to avoid breastfeeding problems. Now you're saying that you're not talking about the first few weeks - you didn't make that clear in your original post.

Anyway, you are totally entitled to your view on what worked for you - you don't have to buy the idea that babies - even those over a few weeks old - sometimes reject the breast in favour of the bottle, or that problems sometimes arise connected with switching between breast and bottle. However, I think it's just as important for someone to know that swapping between breast and bottle does cause bf problems for a significant number of women - even after the first few weeks - as it is for them to know that some women mixed feed or give bottles from birth and go on to breastfeed fine later. If they know this then they can make up their mind as to what they want to do in their individual circumstances based on a realistic understanding of what the issues are, not on false assurances that they can feed to a schedule and give their baby bottles while establishing breastfeeding and it definitely won't cause any problem.

As for different types of advice working for both of us - yes, true. But I'm very conscious of the fact that over half of all women who start bf have stopped by the time their baby is a month old - stopped usually before they'd intended to and often on the basis of unsound advice - particularly advice concerning scheduling feeds, mixed feeding and giving bottles. Do you know what one the two main reasons why women give up bf before they want to? Sore nipples and insufficient supply. Two problems strongly linked to difficulties with latching a baby on and with adjusting to the demand and supply mechanism of breastfeeding. In both these cases mixed feeding and bottlefeeding can complicate the picture, rather than making things simpler.

It's really not a happy picture out there. That's why it's best - if we're trying to support someone who hasn't bf before and who is anxious about it - to direct them towards sources of good quality information - like NHS Direct, that provided by UNICEF and the voluntary organisations. I'm all for anecdotal and experiental information - it really, really helps in so many ways. I just think we have to be a bit careful about extrapolating general 'truths' about breastfeeding from our own individual experiences.

Gosh, gabygirl, that clears that one up then.

All I can say is thank you - although I often get really frustrated at the conflicting info, going on mumsnet nearly always makes me feel better. I hope this thread hasn't upset anyone - it does just go to show that there could be too much info out there, I think!!

Lotster - I appreciate hearing about everyone's experiences because, if nothing else, it makes me realise that our LOs are all individuals!! When I get frustrated (as I obviously did today when I started this thread!!) about other advice I've been given, I find that some MNer somewhere has been in the same position - and that's good to know. I'm def going to bear in mind what you said about purees and rice.

My LO is approaching 6 months old, so the weaning advice is my current stress (thanks for the pdf info on that by the way) but I have had so much difficulty with BFing!! I totally agree, gabygirl, that it's not a happy picture out there - a lot of my illusions about BFing have been shattered since giving birth.

My only regret now is that I didn't get the bottle-feeding right as well - I do love BFing but I would like a break every now and again (and sorry, I do wish my DH could do it sometimes) and while my DS seems to scream "imposter!!" every time a plastic nipple comes his way, this seems unlikely!! Okay, so I wouldn't exchange this for not breastfeeding, but it still gets me down sometimes.

Now, of course, there's the veritable minefield of baby rice and puree to contend with. Thanks for all your thoughts on that - and, as I said, the unicef stuff - I guess I do have to learn to trust my own instincts. I guess that sometimes I feel that people (and by that I mean like my mum, not MNers) actually mean "trust your instincts - so long as they're telling you to agree with me!".

Excuse loathesome syntax and typos in lengthy posts. I have problems multi-tasking: right now I'm breaking off from mn every two minutes to brush teeth, shriek at my 9 year old and staunch a sodding nosebleed (mine).

Has anyone seen the Best Beginnings website? Apparently all women should have been given a copy of the Best Beginnings DVD by their midwives during routine antenatal appoinments.

For the OP - you might find this helpful:
here

I've just got all teary watching the "skin to skin and early feeds" clip on this site!

gabygirl on Fri 21-Nov-08 18:10:54
"Cory - the counsellor you saw at the hospital would have been in all likelyhood trained by La Leche, the ABM or the NCT! As far as I'm aware there are no NHS sponsored level three bf counselling courses available. The NHS breastfeeding helplines that were set up last year are almost all staffed by ABM, La Leche League and NCT bf counsellors. Certainly in my area the bf counsellors who work at the hospital doing the clinics are trained by the voluntary organisations."

Well, she must have done her training a long time ago as she was already highly experienced then and dd is now 12 years old. She was employed by the hospital and engaged, amongst other things, in running the neonatal milk bank (I donated to it myself for a while). She had a special clinic at the hospital and also did a lot of home visits; this was on top of the breast-feeding home visits made by health visitors.

The maternity hospital I gave birth in was extremely committed to breastfeeding and all the midwives seemed very knowledgeable about it. In fact, those mums who didn't want to do it felt they had to justify themselves quite hard on the ward. Wasn't a problem for me as I really did want to breastfeed.

My only problem of course was not knowing that my dd was disabled and that you can't necessarily sit around waiting for cues from a disabled child. I ended up nearly starving the poor little thing to death until it was finally brought home to me that this was one baby that had to be force-fed.

I am not a good person to ask about mixed feeding, as it was forced on me by having two disabled children. (if you count syringe-feeding of expressed milk as mixed feeding)

But I do know that a lot of the Swedish mothers who count themselves as breastfeeding are in fact doing mixed feeding and that to their minds this counts as breastfeeding. They are supposed to have the most successful breastfeeding in the world and breastfeed for longer than anyone else; yet virtually all the bf'ing Mums I know there give the occasional bottle. (I happen to know a lot of Swedish mums as that's where I come from and have my large extended family). So there must be other factors too that still encourage them to keep going longer than anybody else with the breastfeeding, despite this dubious practice.

Cory - I haven't said that people shouldn't mixed feed or give bottles. I've just made the point that bf experts generally discourage it while a mother is trying to establish breastfeeding because of the problems it can cause.

I think you were very lucky that you gave birth at a hospital where there was such a high level of commitment to breastfeeding, and a lot of expertise among the midwives. I think if you check here: here you may find your hospital has got Unicef 'BabyFriendly' status which means that staff have all undergone training and the hospital has good procedures in place to promote and protect breastfeeding.

I say you were 'lucky' because standards vary HUGELY across hospitals. At my local hospital over 50% of bf babies are given formula before discharge - and usually given it within 12 hours of birth. It's bloody shocking.

I'm sorry that you had a frightening time feeding your own babies - those first few weeks of bf are hard enough even when you don't having to deal with undiagnosed feeding problems in your little one.

Re: mixed feeding in Sweden - there are so many factors that impact on bf rates. Mixed feeding probably causes more problems here because the support infrastructure for mums is so poor, plus women's confidence in their ability to bf their babies is very low.

Very eloquent and intelligent posts Gaby.

Thanks for that link, gaby.