To expect a non - religious school NOT to practise worship?

[bloomingfedup]

Please tell me if I am or not or just have my facts wrong. My DC is at a non- religious primary school, they learn about different religions - ok fine but they also practise pray to JC and God. My DC has been saying things like God is the saviour - don't get it.

AbbeyA, I disagree, taking children to church with the expectation that they will join in and actively worship a particular deity is telling them what to believe. Sermons involve a figure they are told to respect telling them that God is real, about his character and instructions on how to behave. It's not exactly neutral ground. Children may reject all this at some point, just as Unquiet Dad's children may run off and join The Wassila Assembly of God (gulp!) but kids at church are being told 'it's NOT a story' just as UD's kids are being told 'it IS a story', and let's face it, the evidence is on UD's side!

I think they should ban all of religion in schools including children wearing religious clothes /bracelets I don't think its fair on children to not be able to partake in assembly's due to there back ground. religion in schools encourages differences between each child and a reason for bullies to pick on the different kids.

UnquietDad-I'm sorry, I think I must've worded my point quiet unclearly lol!!

Basically I believe that everybody should be free to choose if they wish to have a religion, and if so, which one.

So...I will never tell my children that God is real and the events in Bible actually took place. I will tell them, however, that I believe these things to be true. I have no proof, merely faith, and this sits comfortably with me.

I therefore would not expect anybody to tell my children that these things are not true. I think that is offensive to my religion. I am perfectly happy for anyone to tell my children that they do not believe them to be true.

How anyone else raises their children is of no concern to me, but I do feel that it is displaying a lack of tolerence for others' beliefs to tell a child that a religion is not true/false/a fairytale. Just because we have a set of values in our family, doesn't mean other people follow these same values. Vice versa in other families

Hope that all made sense

Well, if that was the expectation mabanana it didn't work!!

There is no evidence either way. Scientists are split, about 6 out of ten think there is no God but 4 out of ten think there is. No one on here has come up with any proof whatsoever to prove there is no God. There isn't any, the same way there is no way to prove there is.

I would tell your kids that the story of Jesus and God and all that crap is just that, a story. In much the same way that they believe in the tooth fairy and Father Christmas. I don't mind reading the 'kids' bible stories (although they are more violent and judgemental than any other kids books I have seen) that my MIL foists on them.
When it comes the time that they realise that there IS no FC or TF then make sure they are not frightened into thinking there is anything 'true' about religion. If any brian-addled, superstitious idiot teachers try and tell you they are not the same thing, ask them to show you some evidence for God that is more credible than that for the Loch Ness Monster. They can't.

...'the story of Jesus and God and all that crap'

Sorry, but to me that is offensive. You might not believe it to be true, but to call my beliefs 'crap' -well, hardly tolerent, is it?

'No one on here has come up with any proof whatsoever to prove there is no God'
Classic one Abbey!
Typical religious argument that makes absolutely NO SENSE!

I find your whole system of belief offensive. Do you tolerate my belief in hunting small furry creatures for fun?

I wouldn't worry too much.
dd1 is five, this is the start of the third term. she takes part in the collective worhsip and even comes home singing songs about god but she tells me, quite firmly, that she doesn't believe in God.
the influence of home is much stronger.

'I find your whole system of belief offensive. Do you tolerate my belief in hunting small furry creatures for fun?'

How is my belief in God offensive to you?! I'm not asking you to belive!

As for your desire to hunt furry animals...I couldn't give two hoots what you do in your spare time! There are many religious issues that I don't necessarily agree with, but as I am not required to, I don't let them affect me, and I wouldn't pass comment/judgemnt on someone else who does.

Bettyboobird, so do you think your children should never be offered any opinions other than yours? Other people's right to believe in pixies, different deities, or nothing supernatural at all are just as important as your right to believe in your own myth system and imaginary friend.

Solidgoldbrass.

That is the exact opposite of what I believe.
Please read my post at 18.32

I think hearing about others' beliefs is extrememly important.

I do not, however, think it is ever right to rubbish another person's beliefs.

The whole 'No one has come up with any proof whatsoever to prove there is no God' thing is so totally bankrupt as an argument. The whole argument moved on beyond that long ago.

No atheist should ask for proof - it's impossible. No theist should ask for anti-proof - it's equally impossible. All you can do is look at the evidence and weigh it. And the evidence for god is sorely lacking.

It is faith.
No one has given me a shred of evidence that there is no God.
The finest minds throughout history have pondered the question, some believe and some don't. I find it amazining that people can come on here and say 'it is crap'!!! They have no arguments to support it. They can't see and and so it isn't there!! Prove to me that there is no God-with reasoned arguments,not rubbish about tooth fairies.

This thread comes up every few months. I shall ignore it in future because it follows the same path.

1. OP has a DC who starts school and they are horrified to find that they not only have RE as a subject (something that they are not keen on but can just about tolerate)but that they have assemblies with collective worship. They were under the impression that if it wasn't a church school it was secular and have not heard of the various Education Acts which make it law.

1. They go through whether DC should be removed from assemblies because their DC has to think what his/her mummy tells him/her to think and they don't want them to have access to any other views.

1. OP and other have no proof of God and so there is no God and everyone has to think the same way.

1. People's beliefs are treated without the least sensitivity or respect. The word crap always comes into it.

1. The tooth fairy, Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny are brought in as a correlation.

1. Not one 'reasoned' argument is brought forward to support their views.

1. The thread will eventually fizzle out but will reappear at Christmas when those who hadn't realised the Christian nature of assemblies will have it brought to their notice.

I don't know whether there is a God or not; but there is no proof either way. It is a matter of faith.

Again, "proof" of god demanded. I thought we'd moved past that stage in the argument.

What reasoned arguments would you like?

The problem with belief is that people want it to be "respected", and if they want it to be respected they ought to find some reason for it to be considered as anything more than a delusion. It's not up to us to show that it's illusory - it's up to you to show that it's real. This is the basis of every scientific argument - what seems like a lack of respect is, in fact, enormous respect, because it's saying "You have a theory, very well, please show me the evidence." Despite this opportunity being given, religion fails every time.

A lot of the time, what seems like faith not being "respected" is simply faith being given the same treatment as any other extraordinary claim. And it is an extraordinary claim. It may not seem so to someone who has been brought up with it or who is currently within its parameters, but that's part of the problem. The sticking-point is that, from within a position of faith, god seems perfectly reasonable. It's only when you are able to step outside a faith's boundaries that you see how ridiculous it can appear.

The person making the extraordinary claim is the one who needs to provide the evidence. Why should the world be run around your superstition, any more than anyone else's? Why don't we take the kids up to a stone circle every morning to worship the rising of the sun? Or sacrifice goats on an altar in the school hall? Special pleading, that's why.

This is why (deliberately) silly analogies like tooth fairies and invisible pink unicorns are brought in, because a religious belief might as well be those. I could claim they exist and that "there is no evidence they don't", whereas in fact the evidence that they don't is overwhelming.

These threads always sadden me when I read them. They always highlight how disrespectful some are of others right to have faith in whatever religion they have chosen, or the right not to beleive if they so desire.
It seems quite clear to me. As far as schools are concerned you do have the right to remove your dcs from assemblies if you feel strongly about it. So if that is you then just ask for your child not to be included. Seems fairly straight forward to me. Any concerns you have about your dc feeling uncomfortable about being excluded should be out weighed by your desire for your child not to be included in religious worship.
I have no strong feelings either way and my dcs were involved in all aspects of religous education at school. In fact RE was ds2's best subject at school (A* 98% at gcse). He shows no sign of having been "brainwashed". All he shows is a good knowledge and understanding of all beliefs including atheism and a tolerance of others opinions even if he doesn't agree. A very good thing imo.
It seems very sad that some people seem incapable of expressing their beliefs without insulting those who don't share the same opinion. We are all entitled to have our own opinion without being ridiculed for having it.

Why should people have to remove their children though? That's what seems sad to me. Seems to be saying "The whole school is going to engage in a collective act of superstition, and if you want to feel like the weirdo by acting rationally, it's up to you to make the move."

As UQD says, believers don't have the right to have their silly superstitions taken seriously by those who don't share them. Us finding your delusions a load of crap doesn't stop you having them, it doesn't stop you engaging in whatever activities (within the law and with regard to others' human rights) you find necessary to enjoy your myth system and your imaginary friends. But none of you can ever come up with any good reason why your imaginary friend should be taken any more seriously than Father Xmas, the Giant Spaghetti Monster or astrology.

I seriously dislike the idea of prayer in a non religious school, the whole point for me was to choose a non religious primary, hard to do if you want a good school.

I am fine with teaching the children about all religions and maybe marking them equally in some way but 'god is saviour' I would be quite upset

"The whole school is going to engage in a collective act of superstition, and if you want to feel like the weirdo by acting rationally, it's up to you to make the move."
See that is what saddens me. If you feel that your opinions are right why should you feel like a weirdo because of them?
Equally why are your actions any more rational than anyone elses? Your beliefs differ from some other peoples and, of course, you believe you are right. You have every right to feel this way.
Why is it neccessary to label someone else's beliefs as superstitious?
All I was saying as far as removing your dcs from assemblies is that this is an immediate proactive thing a parent who feels strongly can do. If enough other parents feel the same there would be no one left in the assemblies anyway. It is a valid way of making your feelings known.
Unless the powers that be read this it would be more effective that posting on here.

I think the point is that there are plenty of religious schools about and it does not seem fair to make the children feel excluded when the school was chosen on the basis of it not being religious

dds old nursery school was a community school and they did more religious stuff than the c of e school she is now at!

has anybody successfully opted-out of collective worship for their child?

should i start a seperate thread?

Solidgoldbrass...Instead of "silly superstitions" why couldn't you just say beliefs? Instead of "your myth system and your imaginary friends" why couldn't you just say religion?
As far as I can see no one should expect anyone else to share their beliefs but we should all respect other's right to believe in what ever they want.
I'm not particularly religious. As I said I'm yet to be convinced either way. But if I was I might find some of the terminology used here quite insulting.