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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think it is rude to persistently refer to God/Allah/etc. as an "imaginary friend"

815 replies

AtheneNoctua · 05/09/2008 09:04

even after asked not to by several posters who have stated they found it offensive.

OP posts:
wehaveallbeenthere · 07/09/2008 08:40

and in that I find my own personal "proof" if you will. You cannot have one without the other.
This is what sets us apart from the animals. At least in my own opinion. Good night all.

almostblue · 07/09/2008 09:07

If love is god; what is hate? Or, for that matter, suspicion, regret, hope, and that odd feeling one gets some afternoons that is a little like mild depression but then also slightly reminiscent of fatigue?

SuperSillyus · 07/09/2008 09:25

hmm, maybe hate is god too? Perhaps our whole human experience is an aspect of god, which we learn from and grow through?
I think that the horrible ugly side of life often produces the most opportunity for growth.
I like to think that if we can't cope with the ugly side of ourselves and others during our lifetime that afterwards it will make more sense, when we are no longer limited within our human mind sort of thing.

I can't help feeling that something exists of us outside the human person. Seeing people when they are dead...I don't think they look as if they are sleeping...they don't look like themselves anymore, something is gone...not sure where to.

solidgoldbrass · 07/09/2008 09:30

Oh goody, someone's got in a right paddy that the grownups haven't set a place for their imaginary friend at the table. Go SqueakyPop!

onager · 07/09/2008 10:48

I don't see why love must be supernatural. Do people think it's false then and imposed on them from the outside?. That would detract from it for me.

As for the related, but seperate idea that "god is love" that sentence doesn't appear to mean anything.

If you mean "god has lots of love", "god deserves lots of love", "god gives lots of love" or some other variation then fine, but "god is love" makes as much sense as "god is an itchy nose"

And as for the 'personal proof' where you wake up some morning 'just knowing' that god loves you and is real. Remember that millions of people wake up just as sure that allah/shiva/etc loves them and that your god is not real.

SuperSillyus · 07/09/2008 11:36

Also wanted to say that perhaps hate is not equal in power or an actual opposite to love. That I think hate is only the opposite of a fraction of what love is.

Aren't all people's gods just their words and attempts to understand something beyond our understanding?

Maybe there is nothing else than the physical and plausable explanations for everything else, but that doesn't make sense to me and also seems a boring and limited to me.

edam · 07/09/2008 11:41

No, Squeaky, trolling is NOT disagreeing with someone. It is assuming a fake identity in order to cause a ruck. Calling God an imaginary friend is not trolling. You are getting this rather out of proportion.

Lashing out at everyone who doesn't share your beliefs because you have been arguing with some other people who don't share your beliefs or may share them but express them differently is not reasonable, is it?

Cammelia · 07/09/2008 11:47

"Besides what a lot of atheists fail to accept is that most Christians believe they do have evidence of the existence of God. Unfortunately, atheists tend to ignore this because it isn't their kind of evidence and they can't see beyond their own narrow definition."

Agree with this neicie

Niecie · 07/09/2008 12:38

Love isn't supernatural but it isn't explainable (is that a word?) by empirical evidence and yet we all believe in it and experience it. My point is why the insistence on empirical evidence then for God?

Surely we can all see that there is more that we can't explain than we have so far managed to explain by the application of the rules of physical science?

onager · 07/09/2008 12:50

Niecie, this has been said a thousand times, but you insist on empirical evidence too. For all beliefs other than yours.

Do you believe in fairies+, pixies, gnomes, dragons, giants etc and if not isn't it lack of empirical evidence that decides it?

Likewise, why do you not believe my earlier assertion that the world was created by a chocolate pudding?

You reject it because there is no proof and because in the context of all the things you do know that claim makes no sense. So sensibly you ignore it.

Cammelia · 07/09/2008 13:40

I do believe in fairies

almostblue · 07/09/2008 13:49

"Surely we can all see that there is more that we can't explain than we have so far managed to explain by the application of the rules of physical science?"

That's true; and I never quite understand why religious people have a tendency to accuse atheists (and 'scientists' - as if the terms are somehow interchangeable) of 'thinking they have all the answers'. As a general rule, it's not the atheists who lump everything about which they are unsure into a neat package, call it 'god', and develop complex rituals to ward off the fear of the unknown...

UnquietDad · 07/09/2008 13:54

It's hard to argue using comparisons with stuff like infanticide, because the response to that is not purely emotional - it can always be backed up with a rational (pragmatic) one. I don't burgle anyone's house, kill anyone or abduct their children because I don't want anyone to do that to me, and ideally I want to live in a society where these things don't happen. I don't pick fights with blokes in pubs because I'm not good in a fight and I don't want to get punched. And so on. It's rational.

As for the definition of evidence: David Icke believes he has evidence of the existence of lizards who control the world and of the magical powers of the colour turquoise (or something - forgive me if a do him a disservice but it's along those lines). Are we to accept this without criticism because his evidence doesn't fit my "narrow" criteria for evidence?

I don't expect any of the religious people here or anywhere else to throw up their hands and say, "yes, you're right, I admit it, I renounce my faith." I can't see that ever happening. Most people's faith is far too culturally ingrained for that ever to happen, and it would require a long process and/or an intuitive leap of large dimensions. (Although I do know people to whom it has happened. Not many, I admit.) All I hope for is an admission that this kind of thing can never be "argued" because "faith" doesn't follow the rules of rational argument. Unfortunately, once you admit that, you give up the right to argue.

I feel that's all Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett and the other famous atheists really want - just an engagement with some evidence. They do religion the enormous courtesy of treating it as a comparable theory and saying, "the floor is yours, show me your evidence." That is a wonderful opportunity for religious people to fight their corner, and yet it is always squandered with woolly thinking, special pleading and nebulousness.

I think these guys are extraordinarily polite to believers, given what they have to put up with. Yes, even Dawkins. He gives them the time, the space and the opportunity to put their views and he listens to them. His famous "tetchiness" is really no more than the cut-and-thrust of academic debate - he is no more hostile to people of faith than he is to any scientific colleague who has a point with which he disagrees. The difference is, the scientific colleague enjoys the cut-and-thrust of debate on the same elevated level, and can probably offer evidence equally as good as Richard Dawkins's.

It's just that the religious are not used to being questioned and having to fight their corner in this way - they have had centuries, millennia, of blind acceptance. They've had it easy. And now they don't like the fact that rationalism is fighting back.

And, unlike any religion you care to mention, we ain't going away.

SqueakyPop · 07/09/2008 15:38

Lashing out, Edam? Too funny

Niecie · 07/09/2008 16:10

No UQD you miss the point, we don't have evidence of David Icke's lizards therefore we don't accept it.

Christians have evidence of God so they do accept him. You don't simply don't accept their evidence. Those who think only think in terms of empirical evidence reject experiential and qualitative evidence as proving nothing but that is a matter of opinion.

But that isn't solely an issue of theology, that is an issue that runs through other areas of study, particularly the social sciences. There is much debate on it in the field of psychology, for example.

Almostblue "As a general rule, it's not the atheists who lump everything about which they are unsure into a neat package, call it 'god', and develop complex rituals to ward off the fear of the unknown..."

Of course atheist don't lump the unknown together and call it God - that is stating the obvious - if they did that they would be believers. I don't get your point.

I wouldn't have said from what I observe of Christians that they do that either. They have a very definite view of what constitutes God and what doesn't. Fear of the unknown doesn't come into it - what is there to fear?

edam · 07/09/2008 16:15

No, squeakypop, you are just being rather tiresome and extremely rude. If you can't see the irony in complaining about other people being rude by being rude yourself, then you are beyond help, really.

andiem · 07/09/2008 16:19

niecie experiential and qualitative evidence isn't used to prove something though is it? It is used to explore someone's experience of something so that argument doesn't I think hold water
for something to exist you need proof of it's existence that is available to all
christians may feel that god exists and they may experience soemthing that they feel shows god's love or something but that is not proof of god's exsistence that needs evidence that all can see
it is like me saying I know fairies exist because they talk to me in times of trouble but unless fairies talk to everyone and we could record fairies talking to people all you have is my experience of fairies

SqueakyPop · 07/09/2008 16:19

How so? You accused me of lashing out, etc. I think you should explain yourself.

kiddiz · 07/09/2008 16:23

I thought the op was asking if it was rude to refer to God/Allah etc as an imaginary friend yet this thread seems to have moved on to whether or not anyone has the right to believe or not believe in something that has no unquestionable proof. Why does it matter so much? If my neighbour believes in Father Christmas I couldn't care less. If the woman down the road believes that little green men empty the dustbins I'm not in the least bit bothered. I don't care if David Icke thinks the world is controlled by lizards. I can, if I wish, listen to their points of view and choose to ignore them or agree with them should I want to.
It's a shame that we can't accept others differing points of view without the need to ridicule or question what they choose to believe. Each to their own I say

SaintGeorge · 07/09/2008 16:23

Squeaky, you have made remarks that are (potentially) offensive to anyone who is not Christian, simply because you are upset at something said by an atheist.

What have those of other religions done to offend you to deserve that?

SqueakyPop · 07/09/2008 16:28

But the key thing is that I am not upset about what atheists ahve said with respect to the IF (the topic of this thread). I have strong enough faith to shake my head and have a chuckle about their lack of understanding about what it means to have a Christian faith - in their forthright way.

What I was merely doing is turning the tables to show that atheists don't really like it either when they are told what they believe, or rather don't believe. It's a two-way street. They also don't like to hear from me what I believe, rather than telling me what I believe.

That is the only point I was making and it certainly is not me who is in a hissy fit. Far from it.

SaintGeorge · 07/09/2008 16:37

You are not 'turning the tables' on the atheists.

They don't believe, full stop.

Saying that people of other religions have something missing from their lives because they don't believe in 'your' god is insulting.

I'll re-phrase my question.

Why do you feel the need to insult all non-Christians because of something posted by an atheist?

SqueakyPop · 07/09/2008 16:39

It was an illustration, StG. To show that it is not okay to trash someones beliefs - because the other side doesn't really like it either. Do as you would be done by.

SaintGeorge · 07/09/2008 16:45

Crap illustration then IMO

SqueakyPop · 07/09/2008 16:46

Cheers.